Why? Why? Why?

[smileboss]

Why? Why? Why? One day a month ago, my friend brought me a cooler express3 Evpo. cooling unit and asked me to evaluate the efficiency. Meanwhile, he informed me the request from the company that the test should be done in the most honest way and that any conducts misleading consumers are not allowed. After my careful consideration, I decided to adopt the CPU heat simulator as the testing instrument. Reason: I personally believe the data will be closest to the truth because the CPU heat simulator performs the cooling capability with its own cooling unit and of the least use of the overclocking techniques. After the test, friends consider the data not satisfying but acceptable. Soon they recommended me to register my membership of XtremeSystemsForums and published my articles. They continually affirm that the XtremeSystems Forums enjoys the highest reputation around the world and that the members of the forums posses the best professional knowledge. However, what I see today casts a chill over me. Some narrow-minded members simply attack me instead of directly discussing the subject matter. As members of well-know XtremeSystems Forums, we should represent our expertise, and should not spoil the reputation of the respectable XtremeSystems Forums. To those who only criticize without constructive statements, I look down on your moral integrity. Please stop damaging the fame of the respectable XtremeSystems Forums.

Overclock worker: smileboss

PS. I strongly appreciate the members who speak out for me.

[n00b 0f l337]

Your current account matches that of an old one which violated rules in mass spam PM'ing as well as selling a product in those posts. The unit does look good to some, and to others it looks like poor design, but most find the unethical nature of reregistering the problem.

You've already ruined your chance and not many deem it appropriate to give you a second.

AS for load testing, Variac simulation is done by many of us in our load testers and we would expect nothing less in a true test. No one doubts the tests.

[wdrzal]

You evaluated the unit using the proper techniques, I highly praised the informative post, BUT and a BIG BUT if you were previously banned for spamming ,re-registering is not allowed and you should have contacted the administration too see if they would give you another chance.not create another user id from the same banned IP address.

You where attacked unfairly and wrongly attacked about your heat measuring procedure and no one mentioned the previous banning until I opened the second thread in your defense. They just attacked without reason and while giving incorrect info them selfs. your previous banning became a convenient excuse to change the subject.

While your work appeared honest, your tactics and honesty apparently are not.

People learn and change,maybe pm noob about what he had to do to be given another chance after being banned. yes noob you of all members shouldn't have attacked a banned member or used that as a excuse. You seemed to have learned your lesson ,maybe others also deserve a second chance if the administration thinks you warrants it. Thats NOT for me to decide as I don't own this site. But you got off to another bad start by starting another user id.

But in noobs defense he did contact Fugger from what I understand and make amends, thus his presence here today.

Smileboss the honest approach is the only way you will ever succeed in life!!!!! I hope you have finally learned this lesson.

Walt

[n00b 0f l337]

Hmmm thanks Wdrzal but his situation for the original ban seems a bit clearer then my own. I do beleive (and thank) second chances, I did not post in the original thread because of his previous ban as first though (since he also spammed a few other forums with it), but this seems to be going off sidedlengths again.

[FUGGER]

You have my attention and welcome to XS.

XS is most likely the utmost authority on phase change. We are very critical on what works and what is gimmick. For the most part a single compressor cannot handle the load of a system like mine but with educated matching to the systems capacity you would have to be running a fairly low end system to maintain temp under load.

I was supposed to test one and the manufacture felt a magazine was a better audiance for the product.

We love to see independant testing under load. Idle temps are useless, simulated load alone is not enough to satisfy many people here and some would even question how valid a simulated (idle) load vs a real processor under full load of greater than 200 watts.

I would have taken the time to find out what the unit is capable of sustaining under load with actual hardware for extended periods of time.

We are still curious about the unit so anything is something in the right direction.

[Ssilencer]

Why? Why? Why? One day a month ago, my friend brought me a cooler express3 Evpo. cooling unit and asked me to evaluate the efficiency. Meanwhile, he informed me the request from the company that the test should be done in the most honest way and that any conducts misleading consumers are not allowed. After my careful consideration, I decided to adopt the CPU heat simulator as the testing instrument. Reason: I personally believe the data will be closest to the truth because the CPU heat simulator performs the cooling capability with its own cooling unit and of the least use of the overclocking techniques. After the test, friends consider the data not satisfying but acceptable. Soon they recommended me to register my membership of XtremeSystemsForums and published my articles. They continually affirm that the XtremeSystems Forums enjoys the highest reputation around the world and that the members of the forums posses the best professional knowledge. However, what I see today casts a chill over me. Some narrow-minded members simply attack me instead of directly discussing the subject matter. As members of well-know XtremeSystems Forums, we should represent our expertise, and should not spoil the reputation of the respectable XtremeSystems Forums. To those who only criticize without constructive statements, I look down on your moral integrity. Please stop damaging the fame of the respectable XtremeSystems Forums.

Overclock worker: smileboss

PS. I strongly appreciate the members who speak out for me.

Wich is the subject to discuss with you?

As some respectable members said, you registered this new account from the same banned ip?
And now you came back and said that it wasn't you?:stick:

I cannot give any opinion over "your review unit" more than what you posted, and looks good to me.

I don't have any knowledge of your failing horror story's, more than just the few words one member posted, and I prefer to hear some more details.

We have to trust in our old members and admins, and if they said that you are the same person being registered twice after been banned, I don't understand why you can keep posting yet (ban anyone?)

I don't think this has anything to do with the unit, it has to be with the way you came here.
In a first post in any respectable forum, you have to be nice and polite, and what you did, looked like too much of a copy/paste, no hello, no cheers, no "I'm smileboss from..." (where are you from?), no nothing, just a review, and an advice to all the noobs here (all the members I mean): THIS UNIT IS PERFECT FOR OVERCLOCKERS, BECAUSE WE SAY IT (WHO IS WE?)

Do you understand what I mean?

[epion2985]

We have to trust in our old members and admins, and if they said that you are the same person being registered twice after been banned, I don't understand why you can keep posting yet (ban anyone?)

I second the motion.

[kayl]

Why? Why? Why? One day a month ago, my friend brought me a cooler express3 Evpo. cooling unit and asked me to evaluate the efficiency. Meanwhile, he informed me the request from the company that the test should be done in the most honest way and that any conducts misleading consumers are not allowed. . :spam:

If you read the above quote there is enough stuff in there to shoot you down from the start.
A friend bough a unit from a company and then asked you to evaluate the efficiency. So how is it a friend of a friend that just happened to buy a unit from a company and you as the friend has the same IP address of a banned company/person?
If I was a mod and a banned members IP address popped up again one would assume it’s the same person, that or a member of the Cooler Express company doing their dirty work for them.
I know before cooling express (or who ever it was) was here I didn’t appreciate getting spam pms from someone I have never seen on the forms, nor read any of their threads sending me pm’s advertising stuff on high volume numbers (ie not just one item but hey buy 50 or 100 and can do a cheaper deal)
If I posted a thread asking questions about stuff, and suddenly got a pm from someone I don’t know with a sales offer that might be ok as they are helping you out doing the correct thing not posting in the persons thread but instead taking it to pms where it belongs.
I guess the reason why so many ppl have attached you is because if they smell a rat they hunt it down in packs. :CTF:
Generally the cooling sections is for ppl posting projects and builds to share information, not just a marketing scheme. Me I think of this section as my home and visit more than local forums where I could pim my coolers. But of course no one builds units in austrlai so visiting and posting at XS and you get to know other members on a personal level and help each other out
A thread like yours is a review with marketing behind it belongs in a PC magizes or in a for sale section.

If you want to do something on heatloads, have a look at this thread and ask yourself if there is any intent to sell this product, or is the main aim of this thread to help the XS community.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99979&highlight=load+tester

[Nagaru]

I read here a lot and posted some questions when I first became interested in Phase Change cooling. I am not saying whether this story is plausible or not, but I can say that sometimes people do not receive public IP addresses and just because his IP address is the same may not mean this is the same person. If you disagree with the IP address part, which I am sure someone will, pleas feel free to PM me.

[FUGGER]

Smileboss, might I suggest reading this thread

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/announcement.php?f=56&a=38

That is the forum policies, lots of good stuff to prevent any further complications.

[4Qman]

Smileboss, might I suggest reading this thread

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/announcement.php?f=56&a=38

That is the forum policies, lots of good stuff to prevent any further complications.

WOW, on a lighter note., That was your 8,000 post FUGGER, Awsome :p:

[runmc]

Why? Why? Why? One day a month ago, my friend brought me a cooler express3 Evpo. cooling unit and asked me to evaluate the efficiency. Meanwhile, he informed me the request from the company that the test should be done in the most honest way and that any conducts misleading consumers are not allowed. After my careful consideration, I decided to adopt the CPU heat simulator as the testing instrument. Reason: I personally believe the data will be closest to the truth because the CPU heat simulator performs the cooling capability with its own cooling unit and of the least use of the overclocking techniques.

Smileboss -
Did your friend bring the pictures and testing equipment with him for you to test with. Was the friend by any chance from Cooler Express? Do you by any chance work for Cooler Express? It is not your testing methods that I am doubting although it would be more complete to see your test done with actual state of the art CPU and GPU along with what you are using. I think you used great testing equipment, several of us use the same type of equipment for load testing.:eek:

Are you by any chance advertising for Cooler Express?:stick: You need to be on the up and up with us.
Please don't come crying that you are being victomized by members of XS. and don't try to run down XtremeSystems by saying you are not given a fair chance. You have started a stink in this forum by using your deceptive marketing practice, I for one don't appreciate it. Please read and follow forum rules as suggested by the forum owner (Fugger) You could always send a review unit to Fugger for some XtremeSystems testing

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Good Honest business is repeat business.

[wdrzal]

We love to see independent testing under load. Idle temps are useless, simulated load alone is not enough to satisfy many people here and some would even question how valid a simulated (idle) load vs a real processor under full load of greater than 200 watts.


This I agree with completely, While load testing with a resistance heater(usually nickel-chromium wire) mounted to a copper block and a variac adjusting volts & amp meter measuring amps is good for standardized preliminary load testing so units can be compared to a baseline.(not every one has the same CPU ,gpu and board & if they did there are still differences).

Nothing is better than actual CPU,gpu & board tests. silicon has a different thermodynamic profile than nichrome & copper. Also the CPU gates must remain functional. The speed a CPU can heat and cool is also much different than nichrome & copper.

I see 2 of the biggest problems in cooling CPU's to cryogenic or near cryogenic temps is there is only a small surface area that all heat must pass & the standard metering devices now used (cap tube,tev,cpev)do not respond fast enough to CPU load changes.

problem 1 surface area has to be solved with evaporator design and materials.

problem 2 needs a faster more responsive and accurate metering device, such as electronic controls possible driven by stepper motors & controllers.(these are on the market) Add a algorithm code written to anticipate heat loads to give the metering device advanced warning (head start)of the heat load rise.Every time you hit a key or click to open a program the algorithm could recognize and anticipate the heat load that particular program or set of instruction causes the CPU to heat up & send the proper instruction to the controller for the stepper motor to start adding refrigerant at the proper time & rate to eliminate Lag. The same goes for closing off refrigerant as a CPU goes idle.
Walt

[epion2985]

problem 1 surface area has to be solved with evaporator design and materials.


solved, use a chiller with a well sized copper brazed plate hx :)

[kayl]

solved, use a chiller with a well sized copper brazed plate hx :)
water blocks have similar or less surface area than our phase chnage blocks.
Ie with all the plates ya would think a phase change block has greater area to remove the heat than a water block. also the fact that the water removes the heat then the refrigerant removes the heat from the water the losses are greater with a chiller
Personally XS members should be tackling more dual head units and maybe even 3 heads.
im sure a triple head cascade could be done for under $1800US

[epion2985]

water blocks have similar or less surface area than our phase chnage blocks.
Ie with all the plates ya would think a phase change block has greater area to remove the heat than a water block. also the fact that the water removes the heat then the refrigerant removes the heat from the water the losses are greater with a chiller


Not exactly. Water blocks may have similar surface area but water moves heat much much better then refrigerant. And while there is efficiency loss there is a point where the evap becomes a thermal bottle neck and a chiller will perform better.

Or simpler, once the heat load is great enough, with a given dd evap, a chiller will perform better as the gains outweigh the looses.

[wdrzal]

solved, use a chiller with a well sized copper brazed plate hx :)

You apparently need to study thermodynamics a little more,if is was only that simple.

A CPU would give the best performance @ a optimum steady state temperature regardless of load change. mounting a water block or evaporator or even with the suggested stepper motor and controller with the best written algorithm to anticipate heat load rises and falls will NOT keep the core temp @ a optimum steady state temperature. as the load changes so fast and all the heat moves in one direction,the deeper layered transistors (gates) will not be the same temperature as ones closer to the water block or direct die.........

we can improve on todays cooling technology but not completely solve the problem in the manner we are approaching CPU cooling/performance...........

[epion2985]

You apparently need to study thermodynamics a little more,if is was only that simple.

A CPU would give the best performance @ a optimum steady state temperature regardless of load change. mounting a water block or evaporator or even with the suggested stepper motor and controller with the best written algorithm to anticipate heat load rises and falls will NOT keep the core temp @ a optimum steady state temperature. as the load changes so fast and all the heat moves in one direction,the deeper layered transistors (gates) will not be the same temperature as ones closer to the water block or direct die.........

we can improve on todays cooling technology but not completely solve the problem in the manner we are approaching CPU cooling/performance...........

Well I understand that but I don't see what this has to do with what I said.

All I am saying is that for larger heat loads the evap becomes a bottleneck. And if you use lets say water to move heat it can move a lot more. Once it moved it to the hx, the hx is not as limited by size nor proximity of refrigerant, meaning we can have a large plate hx, which in turn has more then ample surface area to move the heat in to the refrigerant. Thus solving the evap bottleneck problem.

I never said this is going to keep the cpu at a constant temperature. I said this will help keep it colder. But while on the subject, while we can not yet vary the temperature with load fast enough we can oversize the capacity and just get it plain colder, and colder for the most part seems to be always better then warmer, with exception of cold buged cpu's.

[epion2985]

Again, I don't see what controlling the temperature has to do with the evap being a thermal bottlenek and not being able to move enough heat but while we are on the subject:

I don't know too much about the effects of temperature variations though out the transistors so I am going to ask a few questions:

-When has colder not been better? (cold bug aside)
-Why would you ever raise the temperature?
-And finally how is controlling temperature of the evap will ever make any difference in how evenly the transistors are cooled?? If you go colder on the evap the transistors below will be warmer then the once above. If you go warmer on the evap the transistors below will still be warmer then the transistors above. You guys have me lost.

[DetroitAC]

Water blocks may have similar surface area but water moves heat much much better then refrigerant.

How do you figure that? Do you have some evidence or supporting arguments?? Do you think the specific heat of liquid water is better than the specific latent heat of a refrigerant? How about the viscous pumping losses, how about the convective heat transfer coefficients? Boiling will beat forced convection any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I can see wanting to control the temperature of the evaporator, but only if you are using your available cooling power to "charge up" some thermal storage means (to react to high demand operation) while the system is idling. Otherwise as epion2985 says:


-Why would you ever raise the temperature?


I think it could be done, but I don't think the metering device control is the hard part. We have transients occurring constantly in automotive systems, and they are not a big deal. The hard part is controlling the evaporator pressure without just throttling the compressor and making it less efficient.



Now maybe this is nuts - but why not cut off the bulb all together and connect whats left of the TXV's sensing capillary to a small piston controlled by a simple linear actuator (motor driven lead screw?) to adjust the TXV pressure. It does the same job as the gas and/or liquid charge in a normal TXV bulb, it's just fast and controllable.
That might work if the piston opened to atmosphere at the end of each stroke, a closed piston/cylinder would leak and the pressure developed as a function of stroke would change, it would also change as the seals wear down.
But that's a very complicated system that must also have controlling and sensing means. The proper, cost effective solution is to tune and develop a txv to react as fast as you require, but frankly I don't think it's as much a problem, since there will always be thermal inertia present to absorb the fast transients.

Are you going to shrink the mass to the evap to the bare minumum for heat transfer only?

[wdrzal]

Originally Posted by epion2985
-Why would you ever raise the temperature?

well in cryogenic cooling or even -100c cascades most oils will freeze and build up and a evap defrost cycle would be needed, this would especially true when cryogenics temperatures are reached -150c. The warming would not require shut down of the system ,just use hot gas by-pass to warm evaporator to around -50 c to get the oil flowing along again.

The best oil separators will not remove 100% of the oil.

I keep saying this we need too design and build a new oil-less compressor for phase cooling. A 2 piston would be nice.one large and one small for 2 stage compression.

valves are already on the market that use stepper motors and a controller, they can react incredibly fast.

[Ssilencer]

Originally Posted by epion2985
-Why would you ever raise the temperature?

well in cryogenic cooling or even -100c cascades most oils will freeze and build up and a evap defrost cycle would be needed, this would especially true when cryogenics temperatures are reached -150c. The warming would not require shut down of the system ,just use hot gas by-pass to warm evaporator to around -50 c to get the oil flowing along again.

The best oil separators will not remove 100% of the oil.

I keep saying this we need too design and build a new oil-less compressor for phase cooling. A 2 piston would be nice.one large and one small for 2 stage compression.

valves are already on the market that use stepper motors and a controller, they can react incredibly fast.

You are not using -150 in computer every day apps at all, so there is not need at all to raise the temp if you never get more than -55/-60 IDLE temps in a sinlge stage.

Yes, 2 piston would be nice, electronic valves too, a Silver evap and cristal insulation and circuit tube.
But...
Who will pay for all that?

NOBODY

Edit: well, looks like some good thing happens because of this thread:

I was looking for a cheap clamp meter, and in a local "ebay like place" in argentina, some guy was selling a used camp meter, for about U$S13, some other sells new ones for 9us, so, I told the guy that is he can lower the price to us 10, I will buy his clamp, they guy agreed, and the image he posted of the clamp was the same brand smileboss was using in his test, so I did a little search on the web and I found that the clamp this guy was selling costs U$S275 in the states!!!

Prova CM-07 True RMS Clamp Meter (http://www.isre.com/new-clampon_meters.htm)

So, I got this clamp today for just U$S10!!! (http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-24574712-_JM)

Thanks smileboss! you make my day! :D