planing to do some outdoors watercooling this winter!!

[Solarfall]

hi gues
i've been brainstrorming with the idea that it whould be nice to try some outdoor water chillin and to clock a little more mhz out from by old amd 64 3200+ (winchester).my best clock is with this particular chip 2750 with air.
the plan is to buy and old car radiator and put it to my "french suicide balcony" like i playfully call it.
so my quesion are.
since it can get a bit cold in here (last winter -33) and this will cause most defineatly condensation on my tubes and propaply to the waterblock so the question is whould a
sleeping mattress as an insulation material be enough to insulate the tubes and the block and the area around the cpu socket or will i be forced to buy some neoprene.
will my Hydor Seltz 20 withstand the cold, a have a eheim 1200 but the axel on it is broken.?
allso whould be nice to know that do i need to use Dielectric Grease if i make the insulation around the socket air tight?

i whould like to know if you gues have any useful tips and things that i should need to keep in mind before i will go ahead and do this. then again the hardware that i will be using is old and outdated so if i brake them i wont fell too bad afterwords.

note that if my questions seem stubid remember that i'm a totally newbie at this !

[epion2985]

hi gues
i've been brainstrorming with the idea that it whould be nice to try some outdoor water chillin and to clock a little more mhz out from by old amd 64 3200+ (winchester).my best clock is with this particular chip 2750 with air.
the plan is to buy and old car radiator and put it to my "french suicide balcony" like i playfully call it.
so my quesion are.
since it can get a bit cold in here (last winter -33) and this will cause most defineatly condensation on my tubes and propaply to the waterblock so the question is whould a
sleeping mattress as an insulation material be enough to insulate the tubes and the block and the area around the cpu socket or will i be forced to buy some neoprene.
will my Hydor Seltz 20 withstand the cold, a have a eheim 1200 but the axel on it is broken.?
allso whould be nice to know that do i need to use Dielectric Grease if i make the insulation around the socket air tight?

i whould like to know if you gues have any useful tips and things that i should need to keep in mind before i will go ahead and do this. then again the hardware that i will be using is old and outdated so if i brake them i wont fell too bad afterwords.

note that if my questions seem stubid remember that i'm a totally newbie at this !

Yes you will have serious condensation.

No I wouldn't count on your mattress to save you. Especially since it will most likely get condensation on it, get soaking wet and start dripping on your hardware. Either way its not a great insulator.

Yes you will need dielectric compound of some sort, it has nothing to do with how well you insulating job it, you need to fill the socket with or the water in the air there will condense and if not blow out your hardware immediately will rust the pins of the cpu clean off.

Spend a few dollars and get some neoprene sheets, armaflex pipe insulation and a tube of some dielectric grease and save your self the trouble of walking to the garbage with your hardware. Unless you really don't care then anything goes :)

Wouldn't count on the pump either but maybe it will be ok. Do you care about the pump? If you do I wouldn't try it. Have seen some cracked housings and impellers here on cheap small aquarium pumps not designed for such low temperatures.

[Modzilla]

ghetto cooling with expendable hardware?

tube insulation? hardware store, plumbing section: pipe insulation wrapped with duct tape, or wrapped with a layer of foam-backed pipe tape.
waterblock insulation? top and sides of waterblock: layered silicon and mouse pads, silicon layer first. Bottom of waterblock: as5 on the area that will contact the cpu/ihs, everywhere else on the bottom: vaseline.
Cpu socket: vaseline, dielectric grease, or lubrex in socket pinholes, and all over and around socket and socket base.
Space between waterblock and motherboard/socket: vaseline, lubrex, or a cut-to-fit piece of neoprene with a layer of vaseline on both sides.
Back of motherboard behind cpu socket: silicon and mouse pad.
Pump: Hydor? Don't think it would do well with below 0C temps. Need something beefier.
Coolant: you won't be running water through the loop, try 3/4 denatured alcohol and 1/4 antifreeze.

Read the stickies and posts in this section, the phase change section, and the dry ice section for more info on insulation and general how-to when dealing with below 0C temps. Since we are talking ghetto, don’t expect phenomenal or consistent results.

[epion2985]

Not sure how dielectric vaseline is, might be better off buying a tube of the right stuff. many online pc mod shops sell dielectric silicone baised compound. its lik4 $4.99 for a tube.

Its not that the pump is not beefy enough its just the materials become very brittle and crack under vibrations/stress. Need a more serious pump. I like Panworld PX40, good value, and you can use it for normal water cooling after you are done with your experiments.

No need for 3/4 ethanol. 50/50 ethanol (denatured alcohol)/distilled water would be sufficient. Methanol is a bit better.



Methanol / Distilled Water Coolant

Methanol concentraton Volume %................Freezing Point F (C)

0................................................. .................32 (0)
13................................................ ................20 (-7)
24................................................ ..................0 (-18)
35................................................ ...............-15 (-26)
46................................................ ...............-40 (-40)
56................................................ ...............-65 (-54)
66................................................ ...............-95 (-71)
75................................................ .............-215 (<-73)
83................................................ .............-225 (<-73)
92................................................ .............-230 (<-73)
100............................................... ............-145 (<-73)



Ethanol / Distilled Water Coolant

Ethanol concentraton Volume %....................Freezing Point F (C)

0................................................. ..................32 (0)
8................................................. ..................25 (-4)
17................................................ .................15 (-9)
26................................................ ...................5 (-15)
34................................................ ................-10 (-23)
44................................................ ................-25 (-32)
54................................................ ................-35 (-37)
65................................................ ................-55 (-48)
76................................................ ................-75 (-59)
88................................................ ..............-110 (<-73)
100............................................... .............-175 (<-73)

[Solarfall]

thanks for the useful info gues
i still have some questions

will just a regular antifreeze be sufficient enough, you know the one you use for cars. it says on the back of my antifreeze bottle that with 50/50 mixture the freezing point is -36c

is there a net store out there where i chould buy neoprene and armaflex pipe insulation?

[epion2985]

Armaflex you can get at your local hardware store easier. Try OSH and home depot. Home depot should have some.

Otherwise you can buy it of of:
http://www.mcmaster.com/

Also you may find a lot of useful materials at:
http://www.under-the-ice.com/index.php?cPath=28&osCsid=812285a1a6cad88e1d475fdfe68a9336

Antifreeze 50/50 mix may have a freezing point at -36C indeed however how thick do you think its going to be. It wouldn't do you much good to have a slushy in your cooling lines, especially with a cheap toy pump like the hydor.

My last experiment with antifreeze.....
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7672/145lw.jpg

[Modzilla]

Explain pic please

[{.bLanK} GoD]

My last experiment with antifreeze.....
:Lmao:
Was that purposely done?
I wanted to make a big ice cube, so here's a pic of my experiment.
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53406&stc=1&d=1164861648

Even if you are using the right antifreeze ratio, it will easyily freeze like that if the coolant isn't being circulated.

[epion2985]

That was me screwing around one day and building random things and testing everything that I found. And yes the coolant was circulated but it still froze around the coil. I upped the ration later and the coolant got very thick. Too thick to be run in a cooling loop.

Its simply not made for these temperatures. -36C freezing point doesn't mean it can or is meant to be run at -36C. It only means when your car is outside at -36C the coolant wont freeze. Once you start the car it very quickly warms up to positive temperatures and becomes very fluid. But its not meant to run at -36C and definitely not on the tiny pumps most people use.

[Gautam]

Lol, I have an easier solution, move the entire system outside, solves the condensation problem entirely. :p: Just make sure it isn't snowing. Simply put, you're not going to encounter nearly enough humidity to give you any trouble when benching. You would if you had your radiator outdoors, and your system indoors though.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

That was me screwing around one day and building random things and testing everything that I found. And yes the coolant was circulated but it still froze around the coil. I upped the ration later and the coolant got very thick. Too thick to be run in a cooling loop.

Its simply not made for these temperatures. -36C freezing point doesn't mean it can or is meant to be run at -36C. It only means when your car is outside at -36C the coolant wont freeze. Once you start the car it very quickly warms up to positive temperatures and becomes very fluid. But its not meant to run at -36C and definitely not on the tiny pumps most people use.

True , True.
I'm just a bit hesitant to recommend alcohol based coolants to noobs.

mmmmm looks like a big rasberry ice block, hehe :p:

[Solarfall]

like you gues said. my pump is ..... well basicly just a toy and you are right i need more capable pump. so what pump should i get? ....iwaki or something similar. i'm gessing that ordinary aquarium pumps are out of question...right?
propaply frost is going to crack them.

i think that i'll start experementing when the temperature hits -15c or -20c or if i'm lucky enough we will have -30c weather.
this year it has been really warm over here, this morning it was raining usually this time of year there are atleat -10c outside.... damn global warming :mad: . but i'm confident that it will start to be cold in january/ February so a can make this madness reality.

oh and thank you epion2985 for the links very helpful.

[epion2985]

Lol, I have an easier solution, move the entire system outside, solves the condensation problem entirely. :p: Just make sure it isn't snowing. Simply put, you're not going to encounter nearly enough humidity to give you any trouble when benching. You would if you had your radiator outdoors, and your system indoors though.

Not very practical. Will need some long keyboard and monitor cords lol. But you get 5 stars for originality :D

True , True.
I'm just a bit hesitant to recommend alcohol based coolants to noobs.

mmmmm looks like a big rasberry ice block, hehe :p:

No you are right, with alcohol based coolants you have to be neat and pay attention to seal things well, otherwise it will evaporate and your water will freeze. Honestly antifreeze works for a lot of people as their temperatures aren't that low. But performance wise speaking alcohol coolant is a beautiful thing.

like you gues said. my pump is ..... well basicly just a toy and you are right i need more capable pump. so what pump should i get? ....iwaki or something similar. i'm gessing that ordinary aquarium pumps are out of question...right?
propaply frost is going to crack them.

i think that i'll start experementing when the temperature hits -15c or -20c or if i'm lucky enough we will have -30c weather.
this year it has been really warm over here, this morning it was raining usually this time of year there are atleat -10c outside.... damn global warming :mad: . but i'm confident that it will start to be cold in january/ February so a can make this madness reality.

oh and thank you epion2985 for the links very helpful.

Well it depends how much money you want to spend. The iwaki RD30 is my favorite so far. It can push 36ft of head and is quiet and very small. Best part its DC and you can slow or speed it up with accordance to your personal needs. But its pricey (~ $300) and hard to find. Something like Iwaki MD20 RLZ (high pressure model) would be the next best thing, $160 but rather hard to find. You can settle for Iwaki MD20 RLT, less head but easy to find, about $160 also. I have picked up a Panworld 40PX which seems to be a really good deal for the money. Its $100 and is pretty much an iwaki MD20 RLT.


iwaki MD20RLT (http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=IK1123)
panworld 40PX (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PW-40PX&Category_Code=Panworld)

I would probably go with the panworld 40PX if you "cant afford/don't want to look around for" the iwaki RD30.

None of these pumps are really rated to go below 0C but they seem to work just fine as they are made to a very high standard with materials that seem to not get brittle under those temperatures unlike the cheap aquarium / pc water cooling pumps.

[Gautam]

Heh, I was only half kidding. ;) I did this myself a few years ago when I was beginning overclocking...moved the system right outside the door, and had the monitor right in front of it. Wish I had a pic. Did hit -5C or so temps loaded, with ambients of around -20. :p:

I have to strongly agree with the suggestion to use alcohol-based coolant. Sure, its expensive, it smells, its flammable, and it evaporates extremely quickly, but IMHO its still the only way any subzero liquid cooling should be done. Mixes of antifreeze are way too viscous to deliver any sort of serious performance. Pick up a gallon of denaturated alcohol from the Home Depot while you're stocking up on some armaflex and neoprene.

I know its often rumored that vaseline breaks down at cold temperatures, but I've been using it for close to a year, almost continuously on single stage cooling. Also for some pretty prolonged dry ice runs, and I've never had any problems. I did use to stick to automotive silicone dielectric grease, but the costs were just getting out of hand. A tube only lasted me an application or two, and still cost around five bucks. Vaseline on the other hand seems to go on forever, and at a MUCH cheaper cost.

[Solarfall]

i've heard that vaseline will melt in time, like 6 months or so. any truth to this?

[epion2985]

Heh, I was only half kidding. ;) I did this myself a few years ago when I was beginning overclocking...moved the system right outside the door, and had the monitor right in front of it. Wish I had a pic. Did hit -5C or so temps loaded, with ambients of around -20. :p:

I have to strongly agree with the suggestion to use alcohol-based coolant. Sure, its expensive, it smells, its flammable, and it evaporates extremely quickly, but IMHO its still the only way any subzero liquid cooling should be done. Mixes of antifreeze are way too viscous to deliver any sort of serious performance. Pick up a gallon of denaturated alcohol from the Home Depot while you're stocking up on some armaflex and neoprene.

I know its often rumored that vaseline breaks down at cold temperatures, but I've been using it for close to a year, almost continuously on single stage cooling. Also for some pretty prolonged dry ice runs, and I've never had any problems. I did use to stick to automotive silicone dielectric grease, but the costs were just getting out of hand. A tube only lasted me an application or two, and still cost around five bucks. Vaseline on the other hand seems to go on forever, and at a MUCH cheaper cost.

Really, whats awesome, I had no idea vaseline worked. Does it smell?

As for alcohol, its not really flammable when cut with water and it doesnt smell or evaporate unless you have a leaky or poorly sealed coolant lines. How much do you pay for denatured alcohol, because its dirt cheap here in CA.

$4 for a quart here. The distilled water you would cut it with is more expensive lol.
http://www.misterart.com/store/view/001/group_id/1542/Crown-Denatured-Alcohol.htm

[Solarfall]

lol whould vodka work? i have couple of bottles in my freezer (-20c ) and they are not frozen, i admit that it whould be a total waste on perfectly good alcohol.

[epion2985]

lol whould vodka work? i have couple of bottles in my freezer (-20c ) and they are not frozen, i admit that it whould be a total waste on perfectly good alcohol.

Vodka is ethanol with water. Denatured Alcohol is ethanol with a little additive that makes it not drinkable (and not taxable as a drinking alcohol, thats the point ;) )

But yes vodka will work. Its about 40/60 ethanol/water. A bit expensive though, you can buy denatured alcohol at OSH/hardware store much cheaper, or online even cheaper.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

the real danger with vodka one day you may wake up next to an empty loop and a straw with a bad head ach & fried system!

[epion2985]

So true :slapass:

[Solarfall]

the real danger with vodka one day you may wake up next to an empty loop and a straw with a bad head ach & fried system!

hehe i think that this experement wont last no more than 6-8 hours tops, you know just to see if it will work + i need to find time to do this first.... damn life interferes.

[epion2985]

make a real chiller :)

[Solarfall]

make a real chiller :)

i think thats a bit out of my legue, atleast for now,i need to gather more info on the matter before do anything stubid, if i have understanded correctly a chiller can be a potential bomb if done wrong... that really whould suck.

[Modzilla]

so if nothing else, you will get some hands-on experience regarding insulation, pumps, coolant, low temps, etc. that you can use when you build a real chiller. just be sure to show us some pics.

[Solarfall]

so if nothing else, you will get some hands-on experience regarding insulation, pumps, coolant, low temps, etc. that you can use when you build a real chiller. just be sure to show us some pics.

that exactly why i'm doing this

[epion2985]

i think thats a bit out of my legue, atleast for now,i need to gather more info on the matter before do anything stubid, if i have understanded correctly a chiller can be a potential bomb if done wrong... that really whould suck.

Its not as bad as its made out to be. We just like to scare people that are over confident as it saves lives. People who tread carefully and don't overestimate them selves ussually are a different story. Unless you are making a cascade I wouldn't worry about anything bursting. It would only burst if you put way to much refrigerant in then doubled you condensing temperatures or something very strange like that. If you are that worried you can just install a pressure release valve and that will be the end of those worries. Thats what we ask people to do on cascades here on xs, but on SS DD units no one bothers. Its not a bad idea to have one though :)

[lalPOOO]

Depending on the vodka you might encounter problems with sugar in the loop.