thinking about putting a phasechange system into a wooden case.

[DarkCow]

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=487464

check out that thread for the development of the idea.


the idea here is to get a phase change chilling system. use it with an Apogee and a d5. put it at around -10c so the pump and apogee don't break. i don't want to spend lots of money on getting new parts. so i just might wing it with the parts i have right now. and then put in a NB chiller. and then a water block for the graphics card.


the question is. what kind of compressor would you suggest. or what kind of air conditioner here would be best to buy. i only need -10c or there abouts. so i don't want a huge compressor taking up space. and i don't want a huge radiator for the compressor. as for transferring the cold to the water i was thinking about a plate heat exchanger. where would it go? just replace the evaporator with some tubing and plug that into the heat exchanger. i don't have the most amount of room in the world. but i think i have plenty if i don't have a huge compressor and radiator.

any input what so ever would be bounds of help.

[Modzilla]

I read the referenced thread, and I read your post, and I'm still confused. You want to chill liquid using a phase change unit? Or do you mean any type of compressor/condenser/evaporator system? Compared to direct-die cooling with a phase change unit, liquid chilling works better with a larger surface area of the cold evap in contact with the liquid. You want all of this to fit in your case? Even the smallest compressor will take up some space, along with a condensor and some type of setup to bring the liquid into contact with the evap. What do you mean by plate heat exchanger? I have some ideas of what you mean, and none of them are compact. I guess I need some more info before I can give you any practical advice. Look at some of the chillers in this forum to get an idea of how people are chilling.

[epion2985]

Its pretty obvious to me.

He wants to make a chiller and he wants it to fit in the case.

Also plate heat exchangers are the the most portable and smallest once and offer the best performance per room they take up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/30-plate-Flat-Plate-Heat-Exchanger-vegetable-oil-wvo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQihZ004QQitemZ 140055775269QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW


@Darkcow

I like danfoss NF11FX and NF9FX. Embraco FGS 70 HA is nice too.

[Modzilla]

well obviously he wants to make a chiller, he seems to have some notions of how he wants to do it, thats what I wanted clarified.

(sees ebay link) ooo thats not at all what I had in mind, that looks interesting. it seems redundant though, you have to chill a liquid, then run it through the heat exchanger to chill another liquid. Or, I suppose you could take a phase change unit, or a small compressor/condenser/evap system, chop off the evap, and braze/weld the heat exchanger on in place of the evap. That heat exchanger is pressure rated up to 435 psi. I don't know though, I'm still learning the basics when it comes to compressor/condenser/evap systems.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

thats what the plate unit IS it is an evap. fluid flows counter to the refrigerant.

[DarkCow]

the reason for a chiller is so i can super cool my NB, SB, CPU, and my video cards. (ill probably won't do the SB, but it'll be fun to think about)

yea, i am super cooling a liquid to super cool another liquid. but thats kinda the point here.


but the problem here is, that it might be a bit tooo extreme. i think when i get further along with the wooden build ill consider it more..

[epion2985]

well obviously he wants to make a chiller, he seems to have some notions of how he wants to do it, thats what I wanted clarified.

(sees ebay link) ooo thats not at all what I had in mind, that looks interesting. it seems redundant though, you have to chill a liquid, then run it through the heat exchanger to chill another liquid. Or, I suppose you could take a phase change unit, or a small compressor/condenser/evap system, chop off the evap, and braze/weld the heat exchanger on in place of the evap. That heat exchanger is pressure rated up to 435 psi. I don't know though, I'm still learning the basics when it comes to compressor/condenser/evap systems.

The plate heat exchanger IS the evap. It has a pass for coolant and a pass for refrigerant. This is the best hx design up to date.

http://www.apiheattransfer.com/Images/Products/HeatExchangers/PlateHeatExchanger/SB_centerfold.jpg

[Modzilla]

I see now, thanks for the clarification.

[Big SturL]

the reason for a chiller is so i can super cool my NB, SB, CPU, and my video cards. (ill probably won't do the SB, but it'll be fun to think about)

yea, i am super cooling a liquid to super cool another liquid. but thats kinda the point here.


but the problem here is, that it might be a bit tooo extreme. i think when i get further along with the wooden build ill consider it more..
You are compressing a GAS to chill a liquid. I certainly don't hope you were thinking about chilling water (with ethanol and so on), and then again using that to chill the water in your loop, that would be very ineffective. Not to make rash assumptions, but from what I read in your post, it doesn't seem that you quite know what building a vapor phase change cooler involves, or am I wrong?

[DarkCow]

no, i pretty much know what im doing.

i think all im doing here is taking the condensor. (if it was a AC unit it would be the other radiator (not the one that cools the compressor) cut it off nicely.

get a plate heat exchanger, connect that up to the compressor.

get my watercooling (of course first adding methanol or w/e that stuff is) loop together. put it into the plate heat exchanger, effectively replacing my radiator.

so the loop would look like this.

pump>cpu block>nb block>sb block>sli 1>sli 2>heat exchanger>pump

so i go from super cooling a gas (i said liquid but you get what im saying. the stuff you put through the compressor), putting that through the bottom of the heat exhchanger. then getting my water cooling loop, and putting it through the top.

[n00b 0f l337]

THe way your posts go I dont think you have any idea how the chiller itself works, and if you plan on hacking up an AC (aka venting refrigerant) your in for a long list of charges, fines, possible imprisonment, followed by harming yourself when you attempt to build a system without the proper know-how. Read the stickies for once, thats why they are STICKIED!

[DarkCow]

i've read a lot of it... gosh. sorry i wasn't being to specific here, im never good with vocabulary, hence my horrible grades when i was in high school lit.

and i learn a lot more by doing, then reading. im much more of a hands on learner. when i get to see it in person and folow the route in my head. i can much more easily figure out whats going on. in those stickies, if you know a more advanced idea of the system its pretty easy. but with me, i didn't even have a clue how the AC unit works.

and besides, i have tons of time before I'm going to put it all together. and im not stupid, im not just going to make a sudden cut in the piping before i know exactly what will happen. this is just speculation here. fitting a whole water chiller into a wooden case. i dont even have a clue as to which compressor im getting yet.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Yes keep reading, you need to learn a bit more before you go hacking ect.
We are all happy to help, but you need to put the time in to research and get a solid "basic" understanding of how refrigeration works before you make your own. I spent over a year reading stickies, annoying the frigies @ work ect before building my first phase change.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Now for some useful info for ya. :)
i think all im doing here is taking the condensor. (if it was a AC unit it would be the other radiator (not the one that cools the compressor) cut it off nicely.

get a plate heat exchanger, connect that up to the compressor.

get my watercooling (of course first adding methanol or w/e that stuff is) loop together. put it into the plate heat exchanger, effectively replacing my radiator.

so the loop would look like this.

pump>cpu block>nb block>sb block>sli 1>sli 2>heat exchanger>pump

so i go from super cooling a gas (i said liquid but you get what im saying. the stuff you put through the compressor), putting that through the bottom of the heat exhchanger. then getting my water cooling loop, and putting it through the top.

First off. There is no such thing as a radiator in a refrigeration unit.
An evaporator is where liquid refregerant is "evaporated" The cold heat exchanger.
A condensor is where hot high pressure refregerant "gas" is "condensed" into a liquid. The hot heat exchanger.
So as you have explained in your 2nd to last post, you would be heating your water cooling loop.
As i said, keep reading, dont get in over your head, always think "SAFTY FIRST" and if your keen enough, you will get there in the end.

[epion2985]

Ok. Hold on to your pants as this is the opposite of what I would normally say. I think he has a decent idea enough to start putting things together. If he makes a fudge and does something like putting his plate hx as the condenser, he will realize his coolant is getting hotter not colder at which point he will post saying "guys wtf bbq omg" and we will say "more cowbell..." And all will be well.

I am ready to see an attempt haha, for humors sake if anything else. We can always use a good laugh.

@DarkCow

I have faith in you, start laying out your plans on paper, run them by us, realize them.

Draw a diagram of your chiller will all the parts and connections.
Draw a diagram of your chiller installed in the case you plan on installing it in.

Then we can look at it and help you out if something is out of place.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm < Start here this will get you some what up to speed on theory and practical system.

[DarkCow]

"guys wtf bbq omg" and we will say "more cowbell..." And all will be well.


if only international diplomacy went like that.. i think all wars would sudenly come to an end.

and don't worry, im not about to shove the heat exchanger onto the hot side of the condensor. ill be pretty darn sure to put that into the cold side. ;)

well, the case that im building is finaly taking shape. i just finished each part of the frame (12 peices of wood, 8 joints, 4 diffrent tedious cuts per joint, 2 screws per joint (the screws are only a couple mm apart from coliding), 2 handle bards, and each peice with 2 6mmx6mm groove for the side panels) god that was a lot of work. and still a LOT more to go.

from side to side the case is 8 1/2 inches across. im hoping thats plenty considering its bigger than a mach 2 (i think) and theres tons of room upwards. and back.


only problem here is that condensor is EXPENSIVe to buy it new. im going to look around for a old air conditioner and take the compressor out of that (of course making sure it'll hold up with the heat first) ill probably end up buying new copper pipes to make it look pretty.


thanks for the help guys. ill definantly keep on reading because im still definantly confused at some points, every time i read something and realize what i thought was correct was kinda... wrong... shall i put it. and ill finaly come to a conclusion if im just going to do watercooling or shove a chiller into the case.

thanks for that link Xeon, i havn't seen this page yet, very informative.


(i think it might end up taking me longer to put this phase change together than im going to play video games. but hey, building the computer is half the fun ;)

edit: well, just finished reading pretty much everything in the first part. just not about the heat compression system or w/e that is. that website is pure gold. i like how he made it much more visually appeasing, guess that proves the fact that I'm DEFIANTLY a visual learner lol.

[epion2985]

PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES !!



and don't worry, im not about to shove the heat exchanger onto the hot side of the condensor. ill be pretty darn sure to put that into the cold side. ;)


AHA!!! TRICKED!! And why the hell not? You sure can, and have yourself a nice water cooled condenser, then you can dump the heat though a radiator hanging outside your window and not turn your room in to an oven in the summer ;) :fact:

[SexyMF]

I am not so worried about venting a small charge of gas. How many fridges and AC units are just dumped anyway. At least parts of a system will be recycled and put to good use.


I've done degree level studies. Being booksmart doesn't mean crap in the real world. If hands on learning works for you then go for it.

If you break the compressor because you did something really wrong, it will move on to the rubbish anyway, as it probably would have in the first place.

Good luck.

[epion2985]

I've done degree level studies. Being book smart doesn't mean crap in the real world. If hands on learning works for you then go for it.

Bold statement, however ultimately wrong. Lets just say learning on real life experiments can cost you your life, which is not very practical, which is why we have paper and pencils ;)

On another note from personal experience I would put theoretical and hands on knowledge on the same level with different results. My hvac engineer room mate can figure out how to size a system pretty fast due to his practical hand on knowledge, but thats all he can do, what he has experience doing and only due to memorization and cheat tables and charts. On the other hand my 2x phD acquaintance would take longer but he can calculate anything and do with infinite persicion and no cheat sheets or charts, but it takes longer. The second one has less scars.

My personal opinion is some of us maintain this world/civilization while some of us advance it. And while without maintenance we would not get to advance further I prefer to be on the side that does the advancing and not the maintenance.

Moral is stay smart, learn first experiment after you understand things, do things on paper first, and you will succeed overall on a much greater level.

[\/icious]

PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES !!




AHA!!! TRICKED!! And why the hell not? You sure can, and have yourself a nice water cooled condenser, then you can dump the heat though a radiator hanging outside your window and not turn your room in to an oven in the summer ;) :fact:
is watercooling your condensor practicle though? Would you get faster pull downs on your chilled liquid or just slightly lower temps?

[DarkCow]

well, thankfully in the summer i can be sweating my balls off and not even notice. its the weirdest thing.


one day my AC broke and i had 3 computer for a lan in my room. every guy there was constantly complaining about the heat. but i didn't feel anything. weird....


and another day my AC had a freak a leak. some how the AC unit shut down completly and the upstairs stopped getting cool air. but the downstairs got it all. and i mean ALL of it. it was probably 67f downstairs... and then 90 something upstairs. it was insane.


and considering i don't know much about phase change. i wouldn't know about water cooling your condenser. but in my mind air cooling it is fine. phase change is already extreme. but water cooling your phase change is just going too far. i could see it now. a chilled water cooling system using a water cooled phase change system....

[Xeon th MG Pony]

is watercooling your condensor practicle though? Would you get faster pull downs on your chilled liquid or just slightly lower temps?


you'd get much better performance that is far stabler, and a slightly smaller power bill due to lower head pressures. Not to mention you can use the waste heat to warm a basment or other such place.

It is all a mixed bag, you have to calculate out the pro Vs con to your exact implimentation

[DarkCow]

yea, definantly a lower head pressure. those condensors have so many turns and 90 degree angles i wondered how much of an impact it would have.

[epion2985]

Lower head pressure is not always better. Remember the bigger the pressure differential the colder :)

So it is in your best interest to maintain a high head pressure and low evap pressure.

In the industry with AC and so on very cold is often not the goal, so they use rivers to cool their condensers and other fun things like that. Saves a lot of fans and energy.

All in all its just an application, its not better or worse, its better if you need the result I gives you and worse if you don't.

For example its better because you can keep the heat out of your room in the summer while being able to quickly disconnect it if you need to move the system. Something you couldn't do if you brazed pipes that ran outside to air to refrigerant condenser.

Or if you want to keep something warm in the winter far away from the machine and want to move the heat easily and flexibly. I like phase in the winter, keeps my room toasty.

One more issue is system functionality. IF your condensing temperatures in the winter are 60F and you run 200psi head pressure, then summer comes and you hit 100F+ condensing temp and your pressure goes though the roof not only are you compromising your safety as things can start blowing up but also the power consumption of your system, the life of the compressor and so on.

Water condensers overall are a better choice if you do it right. Like using tap water to run though your condenser then out to water you plants or what not. You can have a small flow rate, and with even 24/7 use it doesn't cost you that much. That would be more of a stationary solution. Unless they pipe water to your seat at your local lan parties :)

Water cooled condensers are just yet another thing to consider that might be of great benefit in certain situations.

yea, definantly a lower head pressure. those condensors have so many turns and 90 degree angles i wondered how much of an impact it would have.

Depends what you want to look at. Velocity isn't really effected overall in the loop in a closed loop setup. Oil pooling can be an issue but that has to do more with up down bends then left right. If you have an over sized condenser with a very small compressor it can lead to oil pooling due to velocity dropping while the contents are passing though the hx, can lead to pooling, which can lead to oil and refrigerant coming out of the hx in bursts which can lead to a sea saw (nothing nothing nothing too much too much nothing nothing) sporadic type performance which isn't great. But moral is size things properly.

[DarkCow]

hmm.. interesting..

but then again does make a lot of sense. not good for a stable overclock if your temps skyrocket every now and again.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

don't forget epion I only use TXVs :D a well designed system lower head is better in every department, costs, machanicle stress, leakages it lowers all these; Get it as low as you can whilst maintaining function, uber cold is not the goal, practicality is, well for me any way.

[epion2985]

don't forget epion I only use TXVs :D a well designed system lower head is better in every department, costs, machanicle stress, leakages it lowers all these; Get it as low as you can whilst maintaining function, uber cold is not the goal, practicality is, well for me any way.

Well its not better in every department as you said yourself, not if you goal is to get as cold as possible. I'll stress this again, you are what we call "the exception" around here you little odd ball. Most of us want to get colder to achieve a better overclock and bragging rights. Most of us are cooling gaming/benching rigs, not servers in our closets ;)