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Terru
10-16-2006, 11:23 AM
Hi all, this is my first post but I have been a long time lurker on XS for a few years, and have now decided to make a post, so introductions are out of the way :)

Many of us have been thinking about setting up new machines recently, especially now that Conroe’s are out and the next gen gpu's are on the horizon and questions about all parts have flooded the forums. Most of the time, these questions are answered quickly and clearly, with only a little bloodshed. :p: However, there is one component that always seems to generate the most questions and really stirs up debate - the power supply. There are probably many reasonable arguments for this, the chief one being that it takes a well educated and experienced professional with some serious hardware to really analyze a PSU correctly, and quite frankly, most of us cannot do that, and have to rely on the words of others and our own experiences. This then leaves the community quite divided when it comes time to choose or recommend a new PSU. Arguments always have links to review sites; someone always has had good experience with a particular brand, and someone else experienced freak explosions and stayed away from said brand.


Several members of the community have come forward in an effort to try and clear up this confusion, by either have comprehensive reviews (JonnyGuru) or tiered levels of products (perkam et al.).


However, as much as these are helpful, there are still some questions left, because during a recent thread about a new enthusiast/gaming machine the debate over power supplies just fell apart into arguments, with no real conclusion!


So, no after this long-winded introduction, my question is this. Is there really a perfect enthusiast PSU? By perfect, I don’t mean the most powerful, or the one with the cleanest rails. Not much beats a Formula 1 racing car for going around certain tracks, but it has serious downsides for use in any other application. What I am looking for here, would be the perfect all-round PSU. Perkams list provides a great source of information for sorting out the good from bad, if based only on performance, kind of like “lap times” if you will. JonnyGuru has wonderful reviews and analysis of supplies, but for reasons I may have missed or overlooked, some brands are missing (PCP&C ?) and it is hard to compare them to each other. What I am trying to do here, is take the top PSU’s, and compare them, in an effort to see if there is any one (or two?) PSU that can be recommended to any potential system builder


The ultimate PSU would, in my most humble of opinions, have to fulfill these requirements.



1. It would have to provide enough power for current and future systems, this means quad core CPU and dual G80/R600, with extras on top, such as Water-cooling, LCD’s RAID arrays, etc.


2. It would have to provide said power in a “clean” manner, with low ripple on the rails, low electrical noise.


3. It would have to do this is a reasonable silent or at least quiet most of the time manner. No tornados here. Industrial grade power supplies are great – for industry. When I work in a server room, I have to wear ear protection. We don’t want that at home for our everyday systems that run 24/7 and in some cases next to our bed.


4. Modular cables help, but are not all-important. Cable management is great, since not all of use every cable, right away and having a huge mass of extra cables can be a headache. Purists claim that modular cables add extra resistance equivalent to a few feet of wire. Seriously, that is not major drawback.


5. Same again with sleeved cables, not a must but always a nice luxury. Sure you can do it yourself, or have someone to pay you but its nice when you drop $200-$300 on a PSU to have a little bit of refinement.


6. This is a strange category, but useful, some PSU’s have strange quirks that just make them undesirable, such as serious electrical interference or noise. Those of us who are audiophiles or have sensitive equipment around really need that extra shielding.


7. Finally, the least important aspect, price. We will pay for quality, but it’s always nice when it doesn’t cost too much :P:


Now, after laying down these requirements, I’ll run the top tier PSU’s through them, as taken from Perkams list.




Enermax Galaxy - Almost a winner here. Enough power, quiet, modular and no quirks and even a “reasonable” price to boot! Why is it not a winner? Because JonnyGuru found some suspicious ripple that just did not cut the muster. Close but no cigar.




PCP&C TurboCool – A fantastic power supply but noisy as a tornado and incredibly expensive. Not for home everyday use, so not quiet ultimate.




PCP&C Silencer 750W – A seemingly great PSU, but no real in depth review (I.e. JonnyGuru), so we have to go on PCP&C’s rep, which is formidable. Good price, good watts and silent? I have a silencer 470 and it’s hard to tell if it is turned on, but the specs for the 750 state that it is louder, but by how much? Also no modular cables, but no biggie. Not ultimate because I am too confused about its silence and not 100% on its quality.




Zippy/Emacs Series – I hate to lump them all together, but I am doing so because they all have an industrial level of quality and reliability, but are seriously noisy by all accounts and are really hard to find. Also, reports say that many versions don’t have sata cables, and are all unsleeved. Not a winner again mostly because of its high level of noise.




Silverstone ZF – Again, like all the others, it seems almost perfect, but only the 850W model seems to have the power for the future, and there JonnyGuru reported some very strange electrical noise – not something that I would feel too comfortable with in my system.





It seems that the conclusion is that there are lots of great PSU’s, but all of them have one fault that puts them away from ultimate. Of course, I have probably missed something, and I am hoping I have, if someone can verify that one of the PSU’s listed isn’t as bad as I made it out, or there is a model I overlooked, then please post away! In the mean time, it looks like we may have to wait for a new PSU, or be stuck the age-old engineer’s dilemma of compromise.


Thank you all for reading my first, and incredibly long-winded and maybe even completely arbitrary first post. XtremeSystems rocks! You guys are all great, keep up the good work!

K404
10-16-2006, 11:38 AM
I feel the same as you- many are good, but none are quite there. I`ve just bought a new PSU after some hunting (my purchase aint on the list!) so have been looking at whats out there at the moment.

Electrical noise/ripple cant be cured by the user. Neither can non-modular cables, though those generate less noise and resistance anyway.

How about an Emacs or PCP+C PSU and swap out the fan? Would you consider that a possibility?

Maybe some of the stuff Johnny finds is one-off, or batch dependent. I dont think any of the PSUs you mentioned would let you down by design.

Welcome to XS :D

Kenny

syne_24
10-16-2006, 02:48 PM
I too wish that one of these companies would step-up and create a monster of psu then maybe then they can charge like $400 for it. Because the prices doesnt seem to reflect what they have to offer now. Such as PC&PC, i think their stuff can be not just good but THE BEST if only they went the extra mile. Like above and beyond, I'm talking about just pure ultimate:
+1KW
- silence fans
- zero ripple on all the rails
- 80A single rail
- nice looking finish
- EMI shielded cables + variety of lengths
- gold plated connectors
- 88% or more efficiency on all loads

I dunno maybe that's just too much to ask? Like you I see a good potential power supply and then they skimp on the cables, why cant everything be good you know?

J-Mag
10-16-2006, 03:22 PM
Where are you Perkam?

Ready to promote the Silverstone and bash the Silencer with unsubstantiated opinion?

I will say this again: 60amps 1 rail > 18amps 4 rails.

Shift
10-16-2006, 03:34 PM
ZF is probably the best there. All PSU have problems, but I bet some have the noise and others don't.

Praxis1452
10-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Where are you Perkam?

Ready to promote the Silverstone and bash the Silencer with unsubstantiated opinion?

I will say this again: 60amps 1 rail > 18amps 4 rails.
I still prefer one rail. However your taking an Etasis and a Seasonic. The Etasis is the better. You can't decide merely on rails. The Etasis' rails are setup perfectly well. There are 4 pci-e connectors across 3 rails. It's got enough power for anything you want though the same could be said about the silencer and comes in at just a tiny bit above the silencer in price. Also at Silverstonetek they report that the silverstone can do 900W with ocp removed and at 25C instead of 50C(I think I haven't looked at it in a long while). The Silencer is rated at 40C.

I might not agree with perkam sometimes but the silverstone is better than the silencer.

jonnyGURU
10-16-2006, 04:13 PM
Maybe some of the stuff Johnny finds is one-off, or batch dependent.

Say what, Ken? :p

90% of my stuff is bought off the shelf. :D

:banana:

Anyhoo... The Silverstone ST70F I'm currently playing with is giving me warm fuzzies. Enhance built, seems to be good (although not the best) quality, strong regulation, decent efficiency (81% typical,) almost no ripple (although the 5V kisses the 50mV mark,) modular... and the Type K thermometer was not affected by it! :D

At $200, it's not TOO expensive, right?

There's also the Ultra X3 700W. My engineering sample is quieter than a Seasonic, 84% efficient typical and the size of a GameXstream. But I don't know when this thing is going to see the light of day. Q1 2007?!?! Supposedly they're also working on a modular 900W! 2008?!?!

Oklahoma Wolf
10-16-2006, 08:00 PM
There's also the Ultra X3 700W. My engineering sample is quieter than a Seasonic, 84% efficient typical and the size of a GameXstream.

Don't forget the small point that it regulates like a Zippy ;)

I hope it sees the market sooner rather than later. Ultra's dead serious about competing with the big boys this time.

perkam
10-16-2006, 09:57 PM
Ultimate PSU - A myth?No...its called a zippy.

Perkam

rick_fx
10-17-2006, 12:16 AM
No...its called a zippy.

Perkam

An 850W Zippy (psl-6850p) PSU review by JonnyGURU would be interesting :cool:

jonnyGURU
10-17-2006, 04:25 AM
An 850W Zippy (psl-6850p) PSU review by JonnyGURU would be interesting :cool:

You think?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88

K404
10-17-2006, 04:46 AM
Say what, Ken? :p

90% of my stuff is bought off the shelf. :D

:banana:


Sorry Jonny..I meant one-off problems, not one-off Golden Sample PSUs :)

I trust your reviews more than most.

K

jonnyGURU
10-17-2006, 05:11 AM
Sorry Jonny..I meant one-off problems, not one-off Golden Sample PSUs :)

I trust your reviews more than most.

K

That's cool. But FYI: I tested two of the Enermax Galaxy's and got the same rippple during crossload, and tested two OCZ GameXstream 700W's and an FSP Epslion 600W (same platform) and got the same ripple on all three.

If I find something really off the wall like way out of spec ripple, I try to substantiate it with another unit.

Oh, and PS: The ripple on the OCZ is no secret. Look at the specs for the AOpen 700W. It too is based on the Epsilon and they list the ripple for the 12V rail as 200mV. ;) Fear not... if AOpen is willing to report ripple as "bad" as 200mV, then it may not be all that harmful to your motherboard components after all.

marauder16
10-17-2006, 07:13 AM
Hey Jonny, I was wondering if you will be reviewing the Silverstone Strider 750W (the modular one)? for me that's the best psu: four 18A rails, modular, black, silent, only 18cm long, 80+% efficiency... and all that for only 200$! :D

Oklahoma Wolf
10-17-2006, 07:25 AM
He's working on that one now ;)

Bbq
10-17-2006, 12:33 PM
My ultimate psu, consists of:

About 30a on the +12v. I'm not quad sli'ing with 48 hard drives. Just a single processor, a single video card, and 4 drives.

Black casing. My case doesn't have a window. Not to mention I prefer black to all the chromed windows.

Sleeved cables. This would be Great.

silent. I need it to be <25db at idle.

So far, what comes closest is the Silverstone Strider 600. It has more power than i need need. Blingless, sleeved cables, cheap, and reletivly quiet.

Batman!
10-17-2006, 12:49 PM
What bout the ST56ZF dude? Its silent, it has 38a on a single 12v rail, and its black, and I believe most cables are sleeved.

J-Mag
10-17-2006, 12:59 PM
I still prefer one rail. However your taking an Etasis and a Seasonic. The Etasis is the better. You can't decide merely on rails. The Etasis' rails are setup perfectly well.


Yeah I know who OEMs them both and agree on their corresponding manufacturing reputations, but that doesn't mean design and components are pulled from their standard models.

Also, you say that the PEG connectors are over 3 rails? Does this mean PEG1 and 2 have their own dedicated 18amps 3 and 4 share one 18amp rail? Reviews haven't been too helpful in this arena.


Also at Silverstonetek they report that the silverstone can do 900W with ocp removed and at 25C instead of 50C(I think I haven't looked at it in a long while). The Silencer is rated at 40C.


This is one thing I had been trying to find out. Do you know for a fact that the Silversotne is rated at 50C? I mean not even all Zippy's are rated that high...


I might not agree with perkam sometimes but the silverstone is better than the silencer.

Well I applaud you for coming out with reasonable points which was my whole goal of proding in the first place.

And to "others" who seem to just post opinion without any reasoning, maybe this will help:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

Hondo=TFD=
10-17-2006, 01:05 PM
What do you think about Mushkin's 550100 ATX12V 650W?

JPeitzman
10-17-2006, 01:14 PM
All I would ask for is something made by Zippy, Enhance, Etasis, or the like that looks nice (black and sleeved), can do between 900-1100watts with a single 80A or so 12V rail with minimal to no noise/ripple, and is 80%+ efficient; I guess it would be nice to if it was rated like this under 50 degree C test conditions. EMI shielded cables and silence would be nice, but is that to much to ask for...well maybe, but it would be nice to see. I wish Zippy would bring the PSL-6850P G1 Gamer to the states, that would be awsome. I guess I will just have to get a PSL-6850P, powder coat it and sleeve it, or get a SilverStone ST85ZF, oh well.

Terru
10-17-2006, 01:42 PM
Thanks for the replys guys, it seems like there is a consensus here, if abit muddled. When I first found out about the zippy gamer ,(PSL-6850P G1) it seemed like the final answer, but there are many differnt conflicting reports about its noise level. That, and the fact that is is ultra-rare, but that only adds to its mystique.

If the zippys noise level was confirmed, or if it was possibile to succsesfully fan-mod it to a near silent level, it would take the crown for sure. However, seeing how these are still unknows (I think?) It is still hard to say...

JPeitzman
10-17-2006, 01:53 PM
Well the main problem with the noise of the Zippy isn't easlly fixed with a simple fan mod. It has a 80mm fan, this is easily moded if need be, but on the inside is a thermal controled 40mm fan. I havn't seen to many ultra silent 40mm fans around. I don't know if you could get a quiet yet high flow 80mm and do away with the 40mm or not, but what zippy needs is a second 80mm opposite of the rear one, instead of the 40mm one that sounds like a vacume but moves very little air. Other than that the Zippy is perfect, thats about all there is to it.

Praxis1452
10-17-2006, 06:24 PM
Yeah I know who OEMs them both and agree on their corresponding manufacturing reputations, but that doesn't mean design and components are pulled from their standard models.

Also, you say that the PEG connectors are over 3 rails? Does this mean PEG1 and 2 have their own dedicated 18amps 3 and 4 share one 18amp rail? Reviews haven't been too helpful in this arena.



This is one thing I had been trying to find out. Do you know for a fact that the Silversotne is rated at 50C? I mean not even all Zippy's are rated that high...



Well I applaud you for coming out with reasonable points which was my whole goal of proding in the first place.

And to "others" who seem to just post opinion without any reasoning, maybe this will help:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php
Jonnyguru listed the rails in his review of it. :)

I'm pretty sure they're rated at 50C. check www.silverstonetek.com . I don't think they'd blatantly lie.

Oklahoma Wolf
10-17-2006, 06:32 PM
This is one thing I had been trying to find out. Do you know for a fact that the Silversotne is rated at 50C? I mean not even all Zippy's are rated that high...

All Etasis made units are rated at 50 degrees, including the ones they make for Silverstone. The fanless units may be an exception though.

Xion X2
10-20-2006, 12:44 PM
What bout the ST56ZF dude? Its silent, it has 38a on a single 12v rail, and its black, and I believe most cables are sleeved.

Yeah, I second that. I love my single-rail Silverstone. Me and two friends of mine all had multi-rail PSU's fail in our systems, and all 3 of us ended up replacing them with this model quoted above.

Just a great PSU, although most of the cables are unsleeved. The PCI-E cables and the motherboard cable are sleeved in black.

Xion X2
10-20-2006, 10:33 PM
Thanks for the replys guys, it seems like there is a consensus here, if abit muddled. When I first found out about the zippy gamer ,(PSL-6850P G1) it seemed like the final answer, but there are many differnt conflicting reports about its noise level. That, and the fact that is is ultra-rare, but that only adds to its mystique.

If the zippys noise level was confirmed, or if it was possibile to succsesfully fan-mod it to a near silent level, it would take the crown for sure. However, seeing how these are still unknows (I think?) It is still hard to say...

I don't know if it's an issue for many users apart from myself, but the Zippy wouldn't be the best high-end PSU to go with because of only having 2 PCI-E connectors on it. If what we're hearing is right, these new graphics cards are going to take 2 PCI-E connectors apiece (4 for SLi / Crossfire), not to mention a 3rd (or 5th) PCI-E you would need for a gpu-physics solution, which seems to be gaining steam at the moment. The 5th PCI-E could be converted by using a y-adapter from two molexes, but if you're going with a PSU like the Zippy here that only has two PCI-E connectors to begin with, well, coming up with 5 PCI-E connections could be kinda tough, eh?

Or am I the only one willing to donate my organs for a uber high-end PC? :eek:

Terru
10-22-2006, 11:34 AM
Good point Xion X2, don't let Perkam see it though ;)

I have a question for you though. Your sig says you are using a ST85ZF as your PSU. Have you experienced any electrical interference with your system? JonnyGuru could not even performe the review in a normal manner because the interference knocked out his thermometers. As someone who is going to be running a high-end headphone setup in their comp, this worries me. Any feelings as to whether or not this is a practical problem or not?

Also, how quiet is it? I have to sleep next to my comp, so I like to be able to lower the noise when it idles at least.

Xion X2
10-22-2006, 11:50 AM
Terru--my Conroe build is in progress at the moment. I actually just ordered the Silverstone yesterday. I hope to have the system built within the next few weeks. It's taking me a while because I've never water-cooled, and I want to make sure I'm doing everything right. I'm also waiting on G80 to come out because I plan on keeping my 7900GTX in my other system.

As for the electrical interference, I really have no idea. I read jonnyguru's writeup of it, but since he still gives it the "jonnyguru recommendation," I'd say you might be pretty safe with it. If he thought it would cause any serious damage to your components then I'm sure he wouldn't have recommended it for use, as he didn't with the Enermax Galaxy 1000W because of the power ripple that he found on the 3.3 and 5v rails under intense load.

I can't vouch for that particular Silverstone because, like I said, it's not yet up and running. But I have been using an Etasis-built Silverstone Zeus 560W in my X2 build for the last 4-5 months, and it's been absolutely flawless. Great power-supply.