What'll be AMD's answer....... ???

[HARDCORECLOCKER]

:D Most of U know I'm an AMD fanboy so I feel a bit ashamed that the first 22 (!!!) places in SP 1M are done by INTEL chips... :stick: :shrug:

:confused: So what will be the answer from AMD....... :confused: :confused:

:toast:

[K404]

K8L. Next year.

Unless this is where you announce (with proof!) that R-HT exists LOL

Sorry to sound harsh, but SuperPi belongs to Intel. And on a worldwide scale, its a LOT more than the 1st 22 places that are on Intel systems.

[Console]

Im not a fan Boy but i am a fan =)
and it just blows my mind that the 6300 @ stock is hitting 30 sec !

[perry_78]

Yes, I too am waiting to see what AMD comes up with :) Also gives me an excuse to keep my 0516tpaw sandy that i'm very happy with for teh time being :)

[K404]

Im not a fan Boy but i am a fan =)
and it just blows my mind that the 6300 @ stock is hitting 30 sec !

30???? Should be better than that!!

[Console]

30???? Should be better than that!!
@ 1.8ghz it should be better than 30 sec ?

The ss i saw was from a Dell with a c2d so i totaly belive you in a custom built pc with quality that it is doing better

[Black Phoenix]

AMD is really in a bad place... A64 was the revolution, now is a :bsod: ... But i will keep my beloved 3500+ CW... And wait for the rest of the episodes of this novel...:p:

[HARDCORECLOCKER]

AMD is really in a bad place... A64 was the revolution, now is a :bsod: ... But i will keep my beloved 3500+ CW... And wait for the rest of the episodes of this novel...:p:

:cool: Spoken wise............ :toast:

[SlackeR]

Well.. I am an AMD fanboy. But i have given in and ordered Conroe. Have not had the chance to try it out yet, but i am sure i will be happy. After all, it is the fastest chip available. And that is what matters in the end.
But i do find it very sad that AMD does not seem to have a response at hand. I really hope they come back for good. Until then i will be using Intel.

[LordofDoom]

I am AMD all the way. I just built a system last week with a s939 Opteron 165 even though it would have been cheaper to do conroe.

Down with Intel! Fight the Machine!

-Satan

[HARDCORECLOCKER]

I am AMD all the way. I just built a system last week with a s939 Opteron 165 even though it would have been cheaper to do conroe.

Down with Intel! Fight the Machine!

-Satan

:D Oh - one buddy on my side........... :toast:

Lets have a beer on it........ :toast:

Oh and to avoid misunderstandings - I love all the ppl here on XS but U'll never see me touch an INTEL chip - even it does SP 1 M in 5 sec................. :stick:

:toast:

[[XC] leviathan18]

wanna 1m uber fast buy a core duo the gaming gap isnt tha big

[vitaminc]

wanna 1m uber fast buy a core duo the gaming gap isnt tha big

Gaming gap isn't usually big between different generation of CPUs as most games are GPU bottlenecked. Even my WoW FPS doesn't change much from K7 to K8 AM2.

C2D is blazing fast for A/V en/decoding and all the calculation heavy stuff.

BTW, not expecting much from K8L as it still uses the same K8 core with some improvements to its fundamental flaws (bigger IF stage to feed its empty EX stage, and 128bit SSE units from 64bit). These IPC improvements will be nothing revolutionary in single core usages (SuperPi, gaming, etc).

[JNav89GT]

lol
amd users answers will be the same P4 answers were to A64
well it does this better or that!!!
in the end Conroe is the pwn now. Bang for the $$$ is debateable I think with latest amd price cuts.
I still luv AMD, but my gaming stuff is all intel now :(

[DTU_XaVier]

Currently, they have none, except keeping prices down on the X2s..
I have not worked at a Pentium in my home since 2001, but I AM getting a C2D E6600 within the next 2 weeks... I simply wanted a step-up from my 3000+ winnie@2200MHz that I can actually feel :)

Best Regards :toast:

[syne_24]

just wait for K8L, I too hop on the conroe bandwagon :)

[Obi]

is it possible to optimize a CPU for a perticular benchmark, ie super PI?

super PI tests a CPU's ALU right?

Is there another test that shows c2d ahead of a64 by the same margins which doing a similar test? if you know what I mean.

I'm just trying to see if intel made any special optimizations just for benchmarks...

Obi

[Serge84]

What'll be AMD's answer....... ??? = ME! :l

[MaRtIe]

Intel and AMD has always been backwords and forwords.. they will conme up with something.. then so will intel.

[LordofDoom]

AMD+ATI= Intel scared out of their @$$3$!

[vitaminc]

is it possible to optimize a CPU for a perticular benchmark, ie super PI?

super PI tests a CPU's ALU right?

Is there another test that shows c2d ahead of a64 by the same margins which doing a similar test? if you know what I mean.

I'm just trying to see if intel made any special optimizations just for benchmarks...

Obi

Intel's ALU (more specifically, SSE units) are 128 bit vs. AMD K8's SSE unit of 64 bit. There is no where in hell for A64X2 to beat C2D for this particular reason in calculation intensive benchmarks such as SuperPi, Cinebench, A/V en/decoding. K8L will fix this problem so AMD could catch up again, but it will be a hard call to say who is better in 2H 2007 as Intel die shrink to 45nm.

[Serge84]

Gaming gap isn't usually big between different generation of CPUs as most games are GPU bottlenecked. Even my WoW FPS doesn't change much from K7 to K8 AM2.

C2D is blazing fast for A/V en/decoding and all the calculation heavy stuff.

BTW, not expecting much from K8L as it still uses the same K8 core with some improvements to its fundamental flaws (bigger IF stage to feed its empty EX stage, and 128bit SSE units from 64bit). These IPC improvements will be nothing revolutionary in single core usages (SuperPi, gaming, etc).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K8L

Not true. K8L is really K9 and nothing like K8's. It was said the core looks to be nothing like the K8 core, so many changes they did. More out of order buffers. 256-bit L1 L2 and L3. A 2nd FPU structure that doubles FPU's, 4th decoder for greater SSE and ALU 128-bit performance. Greater Ghz, Zram, DDR3 and 2 support, much improved clock cycle per clock, and so on. Look up K8L arc on google and see some more die shots showing proof of this. Its everywhere.

http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT060206035626

[vitaminc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K8L

Not true. K8L is really K9 and nothing like K8's. It was said the core looks to be nothing like the K8 core, so many changes they did. More out of order buffers. 256-bit L1 L2 and L3. A 2nd FPU structure that doubles FPU's, 4th decoder for greater SSE and ALU 128-bit performance. Greater Ghz, Zram, DDR3 and 2 support, much improved clock cycle per clock, and so on. Look up K8L arc on google and see some more die shots showing proof of this. Its everywhere.

I must give credit for AMD's marketing team for doing such a wonderful job in blasting catch phrases to the mass uneducated public. They learned from Intel very well. :toast:

K8L's cores will be very much like K8 on cracks. There's no revolutionary change (as opposed to K6->k7, K7->K8, P4->C2D). And this is confirmed by AMD executives. ;)

Regarding DDR3:
1. AMD doesn't have the capability to develope its own memory controller (or it is not cost efficient). It bought DDR2 IP from Rambus.
2. DDR3 isn't finalized yet and K8L has already taped out.
3. AMD carefully said "DDR2 with migration path to DDR3" on their Analyst Day slides.

Not too hard to conclude that first K8L will be DDR2 only, and AMD will release different flavors of K8L with DDR3/FB-DIMM support at a later date. BTW, its ludacris for AMD to support FB-DIMM when they diss it that much.

ZRAM is very likely not going to be on K8L. AMD couldn't afford the manufacturing challenges associated with the doping variances associated with that deep capacitor at 65nm.

BTW, I think you meant You meant IPC improvements via wider IF stage and wider SSE/ALU when you said "much improved clock cycle per clock". But please delight me if that's some marketing buzz word I haven't heard.

[xlink]

if I'm nto mistaken, wasn't K8 just K7 with an IMC, a new system bus and a few minor tweeks here and there? from the looks of it, k8L is a larger step than K8 was from K7, though I could be wrong...


and yes, i honestly beleive K8L should be called K9, no seriosuly, that thing had better be like Cerberus, some insane fiery killer form the pits of hell ready to kill anything(namely conroe) we'll see though, I am a bit of an AMD fanboy and I have to admit, intel did catch up a fair amount

[aspevacek]

I am an AMD FAN Boy adn will not deny it for a second. I attend both AMD and Intel Training. I am getting an E6300 package deal from Intel in October, for a very good price. I just spent a fair amount of money redoing my 939 to AM2. I will never totally ditch AMD regardless of how bad it looks for them. As long as I am happy with the performance of my system that is all that matters.

[Serge84]

K8L has wider closer together threads for one thing to enhance its cycles per clock. And as stated above will process data much faster then K8 does. Plus the word is they will go upto 4ghz with K8L according to the Inquior microprocessor news page. The arc on paper can do it so I wouldn't be surprised. You got to understand this is a new arc as much as conroe is. K8L and K8's are in a whole different ball leuge!

You can actouly compare K8L with conroe fairly because they are both next gen. K8's are still impressive because they are 3 years old and still do this well. No, Zram is in K8L, the L1 L2 and L3 is 4x smaller in the die shots then K8 L2 but the same size in Kb such as 512kb L2. Sram would take up far too much space to add that much L3 L2 and L1 all on the same die when its smaller then K8 dies.

The manufacturing costs have been reduced because they are going 65nm on the cpu die and 45nm on the zram die. As why its so much smaller and denser. Zram is more proffitable and will improve performance L1 L2 and L3 by 10% as well as the chip. 256-bit wide zram is insane as it is.

Again they have 2x the FPU and x1/4th the ALU, with more load buffers and a 4th decoader... this will atleast boost the FPU for SSE by 50% physically because of the extended FPU is 2x the size it was before. And the ALU will be increased from 25% to 50% by spec alone. Physically this makes opervation possible of what it will most likly beable to do.

K8L will be the new SSE monster on the block and will most likly have SSE4a on launch or later on. The spec's are scarry. This will put conroe behind for atleast 6 months until DUO3 arcs come out then put AMD behind 6 months and K10 comes out in 2008 to reclame 1st place again. Its like clock work. This will be a great 3 years. Intresting to see who can stay conpetitave.

Atleast we'll get the Ghz wars like we wanted all over again.

[arisythila]

Oh you are so wrong Brent.....

LOL :-)

~Mike

[Serge84]

K8L IS impressive on paper, but it is quite an exageration to say the ALU performance will be 50% faster. More like 25-40% faster than current K8, but not Conroe (about 10-15% faster than Conroe).

Also, don't forget how FAR superior Conroe is in SSE2/3 functions right now compared to K8. K8L NEEDS all that extra muscle to take the lead.

Not to diminish everything you said, just to put it in perspective. K8L is going to be a great chip, but it is going to hit the market about a full year after C2D has been eating AMD's cake.

"And the ALU will be increased from 25% to 50% by spec alone." I said and the FPU 50% faster. And yeah your right. They do need that extra power. But don't forget K8L will be clocked much faster as well thanks to 65nm and the enhancments that allow it. Look at the load buffers and decoaders. This move was made to allow higher clock speeds then previously not possible.

Doesn't K8L have deeper stages as well. Its sipose to use Double stress on SOI to allow greater speeds as well as a few other things, I think a new kind of gate in the manufacturing process. Those are really advanced FAB things they are doing... it takes 2 times longer to make these chips then intels because of the complexity of these added processes intel doesn't use.

Silicon Germanium (e-SiGe) with Dual Stress Liner (DSL) and Stress Memorization technology (SMT) on Silicon-On-Insulator (SOI) wafers, will be in K8L and allow these greater clockspeeds or cicles per clock K8's don't use all these processes, only K8L will. I'm not sure witch way AMD will go... the way of conroe in cycles per clock or the P4 as in uping the Ghz.

The new process technologies reduce interconnect delay through the use of lower dielectric constant (lower-K) insulators, which can improve overall product performance and lower power consumption. In addition, the new technologies have shown ability to be manufactured at the 65nm generation and scaleable for use in future generations. So expect some performance jump from 90nm to 65nm as well.

We still don't know how the real product will perform so until then we can only speculate or give oppinions but specs look promising. Soon we will see K8L in the wild so until then. Prob around dec we'll hear of (ES)!

Well even the K8's got a face lift with simmilar decoaders and buffer enhancments as K8L so they could up the mhz on 65nm. The 65nm K8's are a bit enhanced from 90nm according to die shots. It looks like AMD will try to up the mhz instead like IBM is.

K8L comes out still in 2007. Just like ppl didn't think 65nm would come out until the 2nd half of 2007, now its coming out in the 4th Q of 2006. K8L more around the 1st or 2nd Q at the most of 2007. Engineering samples have been out since the 1st where made in fab 30 in may. Current roadmaps have been rushed so everythings going to be here abit early. Looks like somebodys going to lose their balls in the [H] Forums if 65nm comes out in 2006. lol

[Kanavit]

yeah i am an AMD fanboy as well. to be honest, i m not bothered by this conroe bandwagon thing. i intend to stick with AMDnVidia combo for gaming. like the guy said, pc gamng will be heavily gpu bottlenecked especially at higher resolutions, so cpu is less a factor. the a64 or k8 is still holding up well, i really no need to upgrade to conroe now. instead i took advantage of the x2 price cuts.

[vitaminc]

K8L comes out still in 2007. Just like ppl didn't think 65nm would come out until the 2nd half of 2007, now its coming out in the 4th Q of 2006. K8L more around the 1st or 2nd Q at the most of 2007. Engineering samples have been out since the 1st where made in fab 30 in may. Current roadmaps have been rushed so everythings going to be here abit early. Looks like somebodys going to lose their balls in the [H] Forums if 65nm comes out in 2006. lol

Everyone is pulling slightly ahead of their schedules. Kentsfield is in Q4 now instead of Q1. Brisbane is in Q4 now instead of Q1. So there's no surprise that K8L will be slightly early at Q2 of 2007 (Q1 of 2007 doesnt make sense as AMD has already published their roadmaps up to 2Q07).

And what can we expect from Intel? 45nm Conroe slightly ahead of schedule in Q3 also? With the new process technologies?

We can only guess what's going to happen in a year or so, but Conroe remains to be unchallenged until 2Q 2007 when K8L is out.

And BTW, the vast majority of AMD offerings in 2007 will still be dual core, so K8L will probably come at a very high price for servers and FX series. :(

[knob]

yeah, but in terms of performance intel whips AMD for the moment :(

[xlink]

well for the next 5-10 months it seems AMD will have the lead. if K8L is out on 65nm and clocks as well r better than conroe, then we will certainely have a new champion... we can only hope... praise the big A...

[The Ghost]

And BTW, the vast majority of AMD offerings in 2007 will still be dual core, so K8L will probably come at a very high price for servers and FX series. :(
K8L will also come out as a dual core cpu , probably , no L3 chared cache on it

[vitaminc]

K8L will also come out as a dual core cpu , probably , no L3 chared cache on it

Yes, but that will be a good 3-6 months after K8L's debute and 45nm Conroe should be out by then. Tough competition there.

CPU design can be closed in fairly easily, system design will take longer (Intel still won't beat AMD in multi-CPU servers), and manufacturing advantage will take forever. The chance of AMD catching up in manufacturing technology is, well, slimer than 32nm.

[The Ghost]

Yes, but that will be a good 3-6 months after K8L's debute and 45nm Conroe should be out by then. Tough competition there.

that could be true , my thoughts are that it would be easier for amd to start off with dual core K8L cpu's , some people think that dual core K8L are only going to be wounded quad core K8L cpu's , which may be true , but i don't know , i don't know if there are some singe core cpu's that was made out of dual core cpu's with a bad core

i would think if it had a bad core on it , it might have a effect on the rest of the cpu

[alucasa]

I am a fan of neither. Generally, there is an invisible flow for me.

The recent two PCs I've built were based on Intel CPU. One was Pentium D940 and the other was Conroe E6600ES.

Other three PCs before those two were AMD-based, S940 dual-CPU opty 244 server & AMD 3200 desktop PC & S939 opty 14x server.

I am pretty sure my next rig will be AMD based since the last two were intel based.

[savantu]

K8L is WAY more of an advancement than K7->K8 was.

Here is the short list of improvements (off the top of my head)
1) 4 Complex decoders with a better prefetch/scheduler (K8 has 3 complex, C2D has 1 complex and 3 simple).

Nope , they still use 3 complex.The 4 tiles are for microcode.


2) GREATLY improved SSE2/3 decoders - now 128bit wide, and I think they added an extra one - up to 3 (gotta double-check that though)

2 128bit SSE units.


3) Shared cache - this is one of the things that gives C2D some of it's muscle, and AMD is wise to incorporate it into a native 4-core design like K8L

We don't know if DC K8L will have shared L3 ( it would be nice ) , otherwise they're stuck with 512/1MB L2 per core.


4) Improved Out-of-Order scheduler (again, one of the things that C2D a lot of it's muscle)

Conroe's magic is in the prefetch unit , macro-uop fusion and cache arbiter.

[breakfromyou]

If intel keeps Conroe the way it is for a while, K8L will completely own it. AMD seems to compete better when they seem to be a step behind. 65nm Intel vs. 90nm AMD.

right now AMD doesnt seem to be too far behind, but they are being outperformed by conroe no doubt. a few improvements to the K8 architecture and they could have the lead again. Conroe on 45nm means much higher clock speeds...thats what AMD needs to watch out for.

[SunFlowerSeeds]

K8L will be my next upgrade from my Opty 170. No intel for me though it is faster now... AMD + ATI = :toast:

[arisythila]

Mike - what am I wrong on? Please post details/specifics.

I was just joking.. My bad :-)

~Mike

[dinos22]

:D Most of U know I'm an AMD fanboy so I feel a bit ashamed that the first 22 (!!!) places in SP 1M are done by INTEL chips... :stick: :shrug:

:confused: So what will be the answer from AMD....... :confused: :confused:

:toast:
should be a bit more than first 22 lol

i listed my little allendale air OC in holicho site.............oh the joy of new tech.........can't wait to see new AMD CPUs with L3 cache and DDR3 kick some arse :)...........imagines 6 minutes 32Ms ROFL.....won't even be long enough to crack a beer open

http://holicho.lib.net/pi3355/pi3355.htm

[EDIT] whoops noticed you mentioned 1M SPI

[The Ghost]

here is a link to a slide that shows that amd will have a K8L dual core

http://www.pureoverclock.com/images/review/k8l_dualcore.gif

[Jaco]

guys , don't forget the "quad father" :)
That will keep the AMD boys busy for a while.

[vitaminc]

here is a link to a slide that shows that amd will have a K8L dual core

http://www.pureoverclock.com/images/review/k8l_dualcore.gif

What's missing is their so-called "next generation" dual core technology. Nothing has been published as of now.

And if the K8L 2C doesn't have shared L3 (aka K8L) or shared L2 (aka C2D), it's very likely to lag behind Conroe in terms of raw performance. And the size of the shared L3 cache will matter quite a bit also.

[Rickster_64]

Yes, but it doesn't make the vast majority of K8 supporters happy that we all are getting jacked out of 65nm cores for Socker 939! LOL. That one still leaves me in fumes. What is funny is that if they move turions to 65nm Socket 754 will get 65nm but not 939. WOOT!

[i found nemo]

atleast this isn't like p4's situation, those were always slow. a64 was fast at one point. lol.


Yes, but it doesn't make the vast majority of K8 supporters happy that we all are getting jacked out of 65nm cores for Socker 939! LOL. That one still leaves me in fumes. What is funny is that if they move turions to 65nm Socket 754 will get 65nm but not 939. WOOT!

hell yea, long live 754. looks like i'll be using this dfi board for a while.

[cky2k6]

Yes, but it doesn't make the vast majority of K8 supporters happy that we all are getting jacked out of 65nm cores for Socker 939! LOL. That one still leaves me in fumes. What is funny is that if they move turions to 65nm Socket 754 will get 65nm but not 939. WOOT!
turion is on socket s now.

[cky2k6]

atleast this isn't like p4's situation, those were always slow. a64 was fast at one point. lol.
the northwoods destroyed the athlon xps.

[perry_78]

Damn, brilliant discussion :)

Now I actually know a little about K8L in terms of engineering ;) Heads up on the posts Serge!

[Console]

the northwoods destroyed the athlon xps.
not the Mobile chips =) 2.7ghz on a 2400+m i miss that chip

[_33]

My current Venice does well at 2.85 Ghz, 7GB/s memory bandwidth 2 gigs kit, RAID0 500GB HDD, Lanparty UT NF4 Ultra D, blablabla... My next move is a Opty 165 S939.... Then, a ***NEW*** system, which will be obviously something in the waters of a K8L AM3 with DDR3.

Yes, system is getting slowly dated... But, 150$ for the cpu + 200$ for the memory + 150$ for the mobo (6 months ago)... It's all cheap cost and it's powerful, so... Plus I have trust worthy names which perform reliably, for the time I use it to until I switch to the next level (in 1 full year). Just an Opty 165 in between...

[Vincentvega18]

AMD arent in a bad position if you look at it company wide, theyre gaining on the server market, sure theyre taking a hit on desktops at the moment (will take a few months to kick in as far as manufacturers shifting systems) but this is the position AMD are best in, they are the true underdogs, and as such i will always stick with them.

[BlaqMale]

anybody think the new 65nm cpus coming in december will a decent upgrade to current am2 stuff, i'm going conroe but it's kinda hard to just ditch amd so i might just take advantage of the am2 price cuts. not like am2 got lower just cheaper

[vitaminc]

anybody think the new 65nm cpus coming in december will a decent upgrade to current am2 stuff, i'm going conroe but it's kinda hard to just ditch amd so i might just take advantage of the am2 price cuts. not like am2 got lower just cheaper

If the 65nm A64X2 3800+ are at the same price point as the 90nm A64X2 3800+ EE, its going to be a great buy. :p Performance improvement from die shrink should be 8-12% probably.

But I bet the price will be ridiculously marked up as they will be in extremely limited quantities in December, probably worse than Conroe availability in the first 2 weeks. And when they are at a reasonable prices, K8L should be not far off.

It all boils down to price/performace and performance/watt, and if AMD is going to price the 65nm at a premium when Intel finally has a competitive product, its going down.

[Serge84]

I hope this new K8L arc will be one hell of a OCer. Sure looks like it with these spisific improvments for clock increases. Its similar to conroe so I'd expect it to OC just as good or better since we are talking about the above processes as I stated before.

I really can't wait to see some (ES)'s in action here soon.

[breakfromyou]

I hope this new K8L arc will be one hell of a OCer. Sure looks like it with these spisific improvments for clock increases. Its similar to conroe so I'd expect it to OC just as good or better since we are talking about the above processes as I stated before.

I really can't wait to see some (ES)'s in action here soon.

hopefully its not coldbugged either. isn't K8L going to be manufactured using SiGe?

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/DownloadableAssets/PhilHesterAMDAnalystDayV2.pdf

some info ^^

[xlink]

What's missing is their so-called "next generation" dual core technology. Nothing has been published as of now.

And if the K8L 2C doesn't have shared L3 (aka K8L) or shared L2 (aka C2D), it's very likely to lag behind Conroe in terms of raw performance. And the size of the shared L3 cache will matter quite a bit also.
intel claims that shared l2 cache increases performance by as much as 10% meaning it might not even be all that much when you consider AMDs direct connect architecture.

[HARDCORECLOCKER]

:( The point of view taken from the companies' side is one thing - but what about the users ( us ).......:confused:

Let's say I am a fresh rookie clocker and the AMD official wants to make me his customer.

What are his arguments? INTEL is now always one step further........

The KENTSFIELD quadcore is as an engineer sample already in the hands of the users and AMD still sales dual core Opterons and X2s...... :stick:

I'm the greatest AMD fanboy U can imagine but now I see INTEL for at least 1 - 1.5 years in front......

:toast:

[_33]

I think AMD has to be loyal to their customers and make 65nm versions of their chips for S939. Simply because it's not worth it to move to AM2, but much more worth it to move to a Conroe platform. In such case, an S939 revamp of the 90nm to 65nm would create an instant demand. I for one am ready for this.

[ccokeman]

I really don't have a loyalty one way or the other. Most of my systems have been AMD mainly because they were cheaper and performed close to or equal to an Intel. I have AMD right now after having switched to to an Intel the last go round. Performance is what sells and i am contemplating the switch back to Intel . But i may just sit this round out and wait to see what the big A comes up with next before i make another system purchase.

[Serge84]

K8L will use all processes they stated.

And when you get to speeds like 3ghz on AMD, conroe, with 64bit for AMD anyways, and dual cores. There really isn't any reason to go any faster because of software and hard drive limitations. I have a raptor, I can install full windows XP in 10/15 mins and have XP booted in less then a half a bar. lol

It really can't get much faster with you able to tell any difference maybe afew fps in a game, or afew mili-secs. But the point to get higher clocks is mostly now adays it just to show off our extreme systems. :cool:

[古強者死神]

Yeah encoding and things are definitly cpu bound, and where the C2D will shine, gaming and things right now are still video card bound for the most part (assuming high details and resolution settings are used) I think a 7900GTX will bottlneck on FEAR 16x12 max settings at a AMD 2ghz speed, If you step up to quad sli tho I am sure the conroe will help you get the most out of your video cards.

It just depends how deep you want to get into it. Once you spend so much money on one part of your system your kinda bound to buy the rest of the stuff as high end also or just have what you previously bought go to waist.

AMD definitly had the 1up and then some on intel when A64's vs P4 were the only cpus. Also AMD had great deals for those who overclocked. 200$ for a Opteron 146 and 148 and both hit 3ghz stable on air! I am a gamer, and there is no way my 7800GTX is going to need more than 3ghz to perform so for me a Conroe would be a waist.

When the next gen video cards come out, maybe I can use more cpu power but we have to wait and see. I would much rather get a die shrank AMD that can give me a 15% boost in power if its only 200-300$ and toss it in my Skt 939 board, then have to go buy a new mobo, new memory (DDR2), and a new cpu. When replacing that many things I for one would just build a new system totally and not upgrade my current since its waisting a perfectly good high end system.

So the cost to move to conroe is great, but the benefit is little for sombody in my position.

Now for sombody with a slower system, or sombody who uses a cpu based program daily it may be much more worth it.

Im gonna sit it out for a year or two, then pick up what ever is best on the market for the money, be it intel or AMD is no diffrence to me, and a new video card wich will probably be DX10 by then.

As long as my system plays games at max or near max settings with good fps, I am good to go.

[Tonucci]

For me it is just about performance or price/performance or price alone. The name of the brand doesnt matter, they just want my money. But i have a little simpaty for AMD, for beeing able to make great CPUs while beeing the small underdog economically overpowered by intel.
In short term i think the answer to conroe will be quad feather...k8l latter

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

I hope many of you realize that AMD isn't even close to being as raped as you're all picturing. at STOCK speeds, the 3800 x2 is still probably *the* best value chip out there, in terms of price:performance.

Next, AMD doesn't really care about us. We're not even close to their bread and butter... heck, we're not even close to their sugar on top.
The server market is AMD's bread and butter, and in many-socket situations (ie 4s+) AMD completely DOMINATES everything and intel doesn't have a single answer to it. AMD is reaping market share in serverland and profiting immensely.

65nm on 939 would cost far more for AMD than they'd make. there's a lot more to a die shrink than just making the same thing on a smaller scale.




also, anybody who says performance advantages can't be noticed needs to join a DC team ASAP!!! Folding@Home and World Community Grid are 2 great causes :) curing AIDS and cancer in your spare CPU cycles never hurt nobody, did it?

[safan80]

also, anybody who says performance advantages can't be noticed needs to join a DC team ASAP!!! Folding@Home and World Community Grid are 2 great causes :) curing AIDS and cancer in your spare CPU cycles never hurt nobody, did it?

I would gladly lease out my cpu cycles, but they don't pay my electric bill.

[xlink]

also, anybody who says performance advantages can't be noticed needs to join a DC team ASAP!!! Folding@Home and World Community Grid are 2 great causes :) curing AIDS and cancer in your spare CPU cycles never hurt nobody, did it?
it uses electricity, which is produced form burning coal oil and wood... which is destroying the enviroment!!!

or somehing like that. I think the actual manufacturing of a core has more negative impacts enviromentally then using it though...


again, this isn't the end fo the world, intel survived the athlon 64s performance/pricing dominance just fine didnt' it? AMD is a multibillion dollar corperation, not some poor person trying to make ends meat.

[Serge84]

When the 4x4 comes out the FX chips will be cut in half $ wise. And the FX64 should be out aready over seas, and the quad core later this year. I wouldn't hold my breath when this happens. Right now AMD is winning the price war actouly. And this move will put them far ahead in all the low-end mid-end and high-end market.

Quad core will be $999 then make the older FX models drop in price down to atleast $500 Soon lower then that to make the 4x4 affordable. Around $999 and less since it will take X2's as well. All this stuff comes out with 65nm tech in the end of the year. Don't be surprised. Besides 4x4 will be intresting cus it will be like having a quad core as well cus how it scales so well 80% performance increase. The quad core I beleave is the FX-66 that comes out at the end of the year.

But slap some quad cores into that baby and you'll never need anymore power again. lol

[vitaminc]

When the 4x4 comes out the FX chips will be cut in half $ wise. And the FX64 should be out aready over seas, and the quad core later this year. I wouldn't hold my breath when this happens. Right now AMD is winning the price war actouly. And this move will put them far ahead in all the low-end mid-end and high-end market.

Quad core will be $999 then make the older FX models drop in price down to atleast $500 Soon lower then that to make the 4x4 affordable. Around $999 and less since it will take X2's as well. All this stuff comes out with 65nm tech in the end of the year. Don't be surprised. Besides 4x4 will be intresting cus it will be like having a quad core as well cus how it scales so well 80% performance increase. The quad core I beleave is the FX-66 that comes out at the end of the year.

But slap some quad cores into that baby and you'll never need anymore power again. lol

Rejoice!!! Quad core at the end of this year!!! FX dual core price cut in half!!!

Can I have some of the good stuff that you are smoking? It seems to make people really high.

BTW, AMD's roadmap clearly states quad core next year, and FX-64 & FX-66 are 90nm parts.

[alayashu]

BTW, AMD's roadmap clearly states quad core next year, and FX-64 & FX-66 are 90nm parts.

sure

[Nightwiz]

Intel sucks... enough said

[vitaminc]

sure

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/4272/tadbx0.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7435/tad2xk1.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8841/2008largeamdq307fk9.jpg

I think the AMD fans on this forum knows a lot more about AMD than AMD itself. 65nm quad core K8L this year @ half of the price!!!

[Tonucci]

Intel sucks... enough said

And thats your second post....you are destined for greatness :eek:

[7he ]-[0rr0r]

Nightwiz a better thing to say might be that intels marketing practices and strongarm tactics to distributors sux0rs (the correct internet term).
Their anticompetitive tactics are my main reason for disliking them.

[-Sweeper_]

What about Penryn??
It'll be Core 3??:confused:
I think it'll beat the desktop versions of the K8L.
Bloomfield is coming, an Intel native quad core, that will bring about 6Mb of shared L2 and some innovations@45nm.

Sorry about my bad english.:(

[_33]

Well, I still say, if AMD can put a 65nm X2 3800+ in my s939 pants, then I'll be happy :banana:

[Khaotic]

I am AMD all the way. I just built a system last week with a s939 Opteron 165 even though it would have been cheaper to do conroe.

Down with Intel! Fight the Machine!

-Satan

I go where the performance is. Brand favorites is the quickest way to hurt gaming performance.

[perkam]

AMD's answer will be...






























Otis SpunkMeyer Double chocolate chip cookies.

Perkam

[Canibuz]

Free chocolate chip cookies with every X2 and fresh home made brownies with every FX I see it as a win win unless intel buys all the milk producers

[marauder16]

I hope they ship X2 3800+ 65nm in December so I can get it in my new system! :D

[HARDCORECLOCKER]

:D At least 2007 it'll be time we can see some new WR's from AMD...(wishfull thinkin' - I know !!)

:toast:

[PetNorth]

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/4272/tadbx0.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7435/tad2xk1.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8841/2008largeamdq307fk9.jpg

I think the AMD fans on this forum knows a lot more about AMD than AMD itself. 65nm quad core K8L this year @ half of the price!!!

Please, don't mix AMD slides with dailytech slides made with Paint (the last one). Thanks.

[Sparky]

-[0rr0r']Nightwiz a better thing to say might be that intels marketing practices and strongarm tactics to distributors sux0rs (the correct internet term).
Their anticompetitive tactics are my main reason for disliking them.
That is the main reason (aside from being broke :p:) why I refuse to buy intel even if they have the performance lead at the time being. I do not wish to support a company with such behavior. I think if it wasn't for intel's business tactics and essentially forcing some companies to shut out AMD that intel couldn't have gotten away with the crap P4 for so long.

Bad bad intel :nono: :slapass:

[The Ghost]

AMD Quad Core Discussion & Editorial
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTE3NCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

A chat with AMD's CTO about the upcoming K8L Quad Core AMD processor gives us some new insight as to just how AMD is looking to handle the newly competitive market served up by Intel's Core 2 Duo and beyond.

interesting article

[vitaminc]

Please, don't mix AMD slides with dailytech slides made with Paint (the last one). Thanks.

The first 2 slides are from AMD tech analyst day.

The last slide is not from Daily Tech. It's from HKEPC and they get their info from mobo makers. Daily Tech usually report history instead of news.

[DTU_XaVier]

I think the AMD fans on this forum knows a lot more about AMD than AMD itself. 65nm quad core K8L this year @ half of the price!!!

And where in any of the pics you posted right there, do you see that?? I might be using contacts, but I'm not entirely blind, and yet, I can't find it :p:... Could you please point it out?? :)

Regarding AMD, they might be having the price/performance crown@stock, being able to sell a top of the line chip like the 4600+ for s939 (2.4GHz dual-core is no small thing) for no more than 300$.. But at what losses?? I can't imagine them profiting on it.... Well, maybe the s939, as that might just be them clearing out stock, but AM2 X2s, selling at nearly the same... Are they loosing money on them, or is that just in my own twisted little head?? :p: :)

Best Regards :toast:

[PetNorth]

The first 2 slides are from AMD tech analyst day.

The last slide is not from Daily Tech. It's from HKEPC and they get their info from mobo makers. Daily Tech usually report history instead of news.

Yes my fault, it's from HKEPC. Anyways, it doesn't change my point. It isn't AMD roadmap. That "roadmap" made with Paint by HKEPC is simply laughable. For example, a future FX-66 is supposedly (keeping in mine timeframe) a quad core part (K8L). 90nm? LOL

[vitaminc]

And where in any of the pics you posted right there, do you see that?? I might be using contacts, but I'm not entirely blind, and yet, I can't find it :p:... Could you please point it out?? :)

Regarding AMD, they might be having the price/performance crown@stock, being able to sell a top of the line chip like the 4600+ for s939 (2.4GHz dual-core is no small thing) for no more than 300$.. But at what losses?? I can't imagine them profiting on it.... Well, maybe the s939, as that might just be them clearing out stock, but AM2 X2s, selling at nearly the same... Are they loosing money on them, or is that just in my own twisted little head?? :p: :)

Best Regards :toast:

I was just being sarcastic back there. :p

All the pricing on Dell's website is pointing out that AMD is paying Dell to money to use its CPU for free.

The price difference between a Dell's AMD box vs Intel box, at the same config is as high as $400 between C2D E6300 and A64X2 3800+ ($100 between Semprons and Celeron D). But the retail PIB price difference is less than $50 at the high end and -$30 at the low end. On top of that, Dell's AMD box is about $200-300 cheaper than HP's AMD box.

Michael Dell certainly got a very good deal. What's better when a hot chick is paying you money and giving you free sex at the same time?


Yes my fault, it's from HKEPC. Anyways, it doesn't change my point. It isn't AMD roadmap. That "roadmap" made with Paint by HKEPC is simply laughable. For example, a future FX-66 is supposedly (keeping in mine timeframe) a quad core part (K8L). 90nm? LOL

I wouldn't say its laughable. They are just a news proxy reporting what they heard from the OEM side, and I agree with you that the FX-66 is probably a oversight on their part. But the rest of the schedules seems pretty on track.

You could of course link to AMD published/announced roadmap, but that has not chanced at all since June, and by your standard, everything happening between now and then are just rumors.

[Serge84]

Rejoice!!! Quad core at the end of this year!!! FX dual core price cut in half!!!

Can I have some of the good stuff that you are smoking? It seems to make people really high.

BTW, AMD's roadmap clearly states quad core next year, and FX-64 & FX-66 are 90nm parts.

Didn't I just say that in a past post the new FX's would be on 90nm tech but use Geruminanium and SOI-3 like some other guy said or was that on another similar thread to this.

[The Ghost]

All the pricing on Dell's website is pointing out that AMD is paying Dell to money to use its CPU for free.
you have no proof of that , dell could be pushing them just to get them out there to get some feedback , companies do it all the time

[AMD_Test_Sample]

we ju st got some revg & revh test samples in huh too bad AMD will not let us show them until release all me can say is AMD has one HELL of a ANSWER for intel... If it doesn't say WOW I'm Irish... kiss me! k8l as you call it j ust blows me away...

me sorry for my sentincing my eng sucks

[vitaminc]

you have no proof of that , dell could be pushing them just to get them out there to get some feedback , companies do it all the time

:slap:
Proof is all in the pricing. You can google but you can't use Dell's website?

Dimension E520 with E6300 (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&oc=MLB1794&s=biz) - $809
Dimension E521 with A64X2 3800 (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&oc=MLB1801&s=biz) - $409
Price delta (CPU + motherboard) = $400

E6300 retail price - $185
A64X2 3800 retail price - $150
Price delta (CPU) = $35

Tell me how is AMD able to undercut Intel by more than $300 when its processor is selling at $150 at retail.

[The Ghost]

Tell me how is AMD able to undercut Intel by more than $300 when its processor is selling at $150 at retail.
dell is having a special on them , trying to get them out to market

we all know that neither amd could supply dell with cpu's for free and then pay dell more money to market their cpu's , and amd would not do this because it would hurt their monopoly lawsuit against intel

the only thing that you have to show is that dell is selling amd systems for less , that does not mean that amd is paying them to do so

sometimes companies run specials like that to get a product to market as a test to see how the product will do in the market

[vitaminc]

dell is having a special on them , trying to get them out to market

we all know that neither amd could supply dell with cpu's for free and then pay dell more money to market their cpu's , and amd would not do this because it would hurt their monopoly lawsuit against intel

the only thing that you have to show is that dell is selling amd systems for less , that does not mean that amd is paying them to do so

sometimes companies run specials like that to get a product to market as a test to see how the product will do in the market

So your idea of "promotion" is to sell your product $350 below cost...

Please let us know if you are planning to open an online store. I would love to shop during your "promotion" periods.

[The Ghost]

So your idea of "promotion" is to sell your product $350 below cost...

Please let us know if you are planning to open an online store. I would love to shop during your "promotion" periods.
being that they are so cheap , you can buy 2 or 3 of them and sell them ;)

you can go shopping on dell promotion sales , why would you want to wait for anyone else

you saying that amd is paying dell to sell amd computers cheap is just a accusation with out proof , yes some one is taking a hit , but it doesn't have to be amd

by the way , i have sold gas at cost , just to get cars in the repair shop i had

[vitaminc]

you saying that amd is paying dell to sell amd computers cheap is just a accusation with out proof , yes some one is taking a hit , but it doesn't have to be amd

So we have agreed that someone is taking a hit, between Dell and AMD.

And you said it doesn't have to be AMD thus implying its Dell taking a hit. Somehow you are believing Dell bothered to adopt AMD parts to do money losing business. :stick:

BTW, the pricing delta suggests that Dell is selling significantly BELOW cost, not at cost. Using your example, it would be giving out gas for free to boost your repair shop business.

[The Ghost]

And you said it doesn't have to be AMD thus implying its Dell taking a hit. Somehow you are believing Dell bothered to adopt AMD parts to do money losing business.
do you think that amd adopted dell to do money losing business ??

who said that dell is losing money ? do we really know what the profit margin is on every computer that they build ??

you still have no proof that amd is paying dell to sell cheap units


Using your example, it would be giving out gas for free to boost your repair shop business.
but i didn't give gas away for free , what i said was that i was not making a profit on the gas , my money was made on the mechanical work , had a elderly lady that came in to get gas , i told her that her brakes was scraping , i asked her if i could put it on the lift for free to check her brakes for her , she said yes and i put it on the lift and showed her what was wrong with her brakes , what i did next astonished her , i started to put her car back together and she asked me what i was doing , itold her that i did not her to feel traped at my business , that it was a free checkup on her brakes and that she could take her car anywhere to get it fixed , she told me right there that she did not want to take her car any where else , now i can tell you what the little elderly woman done for my business

well dell is doing basically the same thing , they won't lose anything on it , go ahead back to dell and configure what a whole system would cost you to get it the way you want it

dell isn't one of the biggest seller of computers for no reason at all

[vitaminc]

do you think that amd adopted dell to do money losing business ??

AMD, by definition, cannot "adopted" dell.

Can't you still see? AMD gives Dell a million free CPUs, on top of some rebates, to win Dell's business. They have done the same to win HP.

Money losing business? Hell no. You would call that as start-up cost. :D


who said that dell is losing money ? do we really know what the profit margin is on every computer that they build ??

So... Neither Dell and AMD are losing money, and yet Dell's AMD box is $400 cheaper than Intel box while HP's AMD and Intel box are priced at parity and AMD and Intel's CPU are also priced at parity on the retail market.

Hmmm wonder what's going on here.

BTW, Dell's corporate profit margin is published in press releases, and it's not hard to know which business segments is selling above or below corporate margin.

[Knapman]

400$ more for the intel box is rediculous!

[Console]

IDK y you guys are making such a big deal over this , It took amd years to get dell to use there products is it that hard to wrap your mind around that they gave them a bunch @ a discout price to gain market share and to let the avg user hear of AMD vs only hearing about P4's heck i worked @ a HP callcenter and you cant convince most Yanks to upgrade to a p4 from a celley because that is the name they know

[generics_user]

well i can build you a similar box for 314 $ how?

you can get am2-mobo for 36$ (biostar with integr- graphics), ram for 36$ (1x 512mb), cpu for 150, dvd for 15, hdd for 40 and case + power supply 36$.

makes me think that dell doesn´t get a large discount on amd cpus, more that it want´s too keep demand for intel-systems (with C2D) low (supply-problems?)

[vitaminc]

well i can build you a similar box for 314 $ how?

you can get am2-mobo for 36$ (biostar with integr- graphics), ram for 36$ (1x 512mb), cpu for 150, dvd for 15, hdd for 40 and case + power supply 36$.

makes me think that dell doesn´t get a large discount on amd cpus, more that it want´s too keep demand for intel-systems (with C2D) low (supply-problems?)

Windows isn't free, and there's the cost of warrantees. And the thing is, Dell's AMD box is also cheaper than HP's AMD box.

I wouldn't call supply problems because C2D price has gone way down since its debut. E6300 is selling at 1ku price now ($183), down from eariler $220 or the initial $250.

[DoubleZero]

All the pricing on Dell's website is pointing out that AMD is paying Dell to money to use its CPU for free.

So it wasn't enough giving the cpus for free, they have to pay? lol :slapass:
Well AMD you can give me cpu's for free you don't have to pay me. :rolleyes:

[The Ghost]

400$ more for the intel box is rediculous!
now you got it , why is the intel box so expensive ?

[The Ghost]

Can't you still see? AMD gives Dell a million free CPUs, on top of some rebates, to win Dell's business. They have done the same to win HP.
got link ? there is one thing knowing and another making accusations


Hmmm wonder what's going on here.
dell must be making a fortune off of the intel box


Windows isn't free, and there's the cost of warrantees. And the thing is, Dell's AMD box is also cheaper than HP's AMD box.
just how much do you think it costs dell for windows ? i would imagine that they get if for the same price ms employees get

you know i can really get a laugh at this , when intel said that they was going to release a cheap priced conroes , amd fanboys thought that intel was cutting off it's nose to spite it's face , now that amd has done the same thing , the intel fanboys are yelling fowl play

can't you just be happy that some people are getting cheap computers ?

[vitaminc]

now you got it , why is the intel box so expensive ?

You should ask why is AMD so cheap at Dell's shop and only at Dell's shop.

A64X2 3800+ is $30 cheaper than C2D E6300 at retail, but $400 cheaper in Dell's shop. Celeron is $50 cheaper than Sempron but $100 more expensive in Dell's shop.


got link ? there is one thing knowing and another making accusations

Link doesnt mean anything, and by the time some of the news made it to "news", its already history. The ability to google doesnt make you an journalist.


dell must be making a fortune off of the intel box

Dell's C2D box and HP's C2D box are price at parity when configured similarly.

So I would say Dell is making a fortune off the AMD box at extremely favorable pricing.


you know i can really get a laugh at this , when intel said that they was going to release a cheap priced conroes , amd fanboys thought that intel was cutting off it's nose to spite it's face , now that amd has done the same thing , the intel fanboys are yelling fowl play

can't you just be happy that some people are getting cheap computers ?

Neutral party here, got both machine right now. AMD's price cut was history, everyone enjoyed it.

The dispute on hand is the pricing scheme AMD offers to Michael Dell.

[The Ghost]

You should ask why is AMD so cheap at Dell's shop and only at Dell's shop.
why should i ask ? why should i care that amd can sell their cpu so cheap and and dell can sell a computer so cheap

if you are really interested in why they are selling it so cheap , email them


The dispute on hand is the pricing scheme AMD offers to Michael Dell.
there is no dispute that i can tell , maybe some accusations that can not be backed up

[vitaminc]

why should i ask ? why should i care that amd can sell their cpu so cheap and and dell can sell a computer so cheap

if you are really interested in why they are selling it so cheap , email them


there is no dispute that i can tell , maybe some accusations that can not be backed up

1. You haven't smell money to be made here yet, do you?
2. The backup is Dell's pricing vs. HP's pricing and retail pricing.

[The Ghost]

1. You haven't smell money to be made here yet, do you?
2. The backup is Dell's pricing vs. HP's pricing and retail pricing.
it means nothing , we do not know what price dell is paying amd for the cpu's , we know that if we can build a system under what dell is charging , we know that dell can build it a lot cheaper

hp has been selling amd computer boxes for a while , dell wants to get in there and compete with the other system builders , they are under cutting everyone , just like intel did to amd , it isn't like they are building a high priced gaming machine

[vitaminc]

And just to prove my point:
http://www.fatwallet.com/t/18/651695/

Dell Dimension 9200, Core 2 Duo E6300, 1GB, 80GB HD, CD-RW/DVD, $529 + tax, free ship.


All the good deals through Dell are hidden or require you to jump through hoops.

Or $680 excluding MIR.

There is a difference between MIR financing, big red sales sign, and 'regular' price. They could probably make back a significant portion of that $150 MIR in the 6-8 weeks processing period.

[Ehwaz001]

Hmmm, it makes you wonder if it would be cheaper to build everything yourself or get a couple of Dell PC's just to even out the price difference with additional hardware...
Somehow, I doubt it's worth it in the long run.