difference BIP3vs BIX3 with low CFM fans. [Archive]

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korkutkaya

07-28-2006, 01:44 AM

I read many threads says BIX are only for 100+CFM fans.
Bad news I have already got a BIX3 :(
However I need silence when I dont OC my PC.
So the question is if the performance difference is huge comparing BIP3(Or any dual flow rads) and BIX3 with low CFM fans?

10 Degree Celsius differance or more?Even further 20C maybe?

Thank you.

Levish

07-28-2006, 06:01 AM

i'd be surprised if the difference is more than 5c if even that

creidiki

07-28-2006, 06:06 AM

depends on how slow you run the fans. the slower the fans, the bigger the difference.

not that the bip is the best rad to compare it with, being the worst of main "group" of rads.

and 5c is not exactly a small amount, all those nubs in the aircooling section use 150CFM stuff to gain like 2-3 over a 60cfm jobbie...

septim

07-28-2006, 08:39 AM

probably a few degrees only like they say...
try a sanyo denki 108cfm fan, at 7-8volts its quiet enough for me
being its at the back of my case and the games sound effects louder...

Marci

07-28-2006, 08:44 AM

creidiki

07-28-2006, 08:52 AM

how much die temp diff does 0.2k make?

Marci

07-28-2006, 09:03 AM

Not a lot at a guess...!

korkutkaya

07-28-2006, 11:55 PM

Thank you for the replies.

I was OC geek but not any more.I decided to move WC since my room temp and pc got too hot.I needed quite cooling solution.

So afew degree C is not a big problem for me.

So anyway BIX3 will do the job even low CFM fans on it as I understand.

Also I have strong pump(3000l/h) and I hope it'll help too.

Thanx again

Radical_53

07-29-2006, 01:30 AM

@korkut: The BIX will still do a good job at low cfm fans, yet it looses way more performance when you turn down your fans compared to other rads.
If 5C don't hurt you, well...

@marci: Lowest rpm we used was 600rpm, as the fans didn't give a proper reading with the controller we used at way lower rpms. Also, that was Yates running at 4V, should normally satisfy any enthusiast who's still looking into performance. Noise geeks would turn the fans off anyhow.
Biggest surprise, to me, was that a PA with the shroud was able to maintain a performance level at 600rpm that all other rads needed 1200rpm to get to.
If it comes to low noise, nothing is even close to the PA at this time.

eXa

07-29-2006, 08:58 AM

ot. what thread size does the pro use? going to switch out the perfect crap fittings i got now...

creidiki

07-29-2006, 09:42 AM

I think its G1/4...

eXa

07-29-2006, 09:55 AM

thats what i thougt....

korkutkaya

07-31-2006, 02:11 AM

Thank you again for the replies.

I have recognized there r 2 BIX3.1 is x flow the other single flow.Thats right?

If so I ordered xflow version.Is it worse then single flow BIX3?

Korkut

Marci

07-31-2006, 03:05 AM

No... one is single PASS (the XFlow - listed above as BIX XFlow), the other is dual PASS.

The DualPass version (BIX in the above lists) offers best performance.

korkutkaya

07-31-2006, 03:29 AM

Thank you Marci:)

Praxis1452

07-31-2006, 07:58 AM

don't get Xflow... =P

voigts

07-31-2006, 08:12 AM

The question in my mind is how all this translates into price/performance. For us US folks, we basically have a choice of the Thermochill, Black Ice GTS, the older Black Ice Pro, the BIX, and the Swiftech MCR. The thermochill rads run $115 US, but the Black Ice Pro 3 can currently be had for $42, while the GT runs $60. So the Thermochill is almost 3 times as much as the older BIP. So real world in average DDC/Apogee/Maze 4 type setup, how much of a temp difference if any can be expected?

creidiki

07-31-2006, 08:22 AM

voigts

07-31-2006, 08:42 AM

I should have mentioned that I am referring at low speed/cfm specifically.

creidiki

07-31-2006, 08:45 AM

PA w. Yates @ 600rpm equals or beats other rads @ 1200rpm.

J-Mag

07-31-2006, 09:57 AM

PA w. Yates @ 600rpm equals or beats other rads @ 1200rpm.

How can you generalize with RPM only? Pressure from fan blade and housing design also plays a role.

creidiki

07-31-2006, 10:01 AM

we're talking yates on both rads here...

Radical_53

07-31-2006, 10:27 AM

Also, show me a fan with a better rpm to performance ratio ;) 25mm thickness. Haven't found one yet :)

J-Mag

07-31-2006, 10:42 AM

Also, show me a fan with a better rpm to performance ratio ;) 25mm thickness. Haven't found one yet :)

Yeha I agree, but 38mm thick models have greater flexibility in time of need when running under a fan controller.

creidiki

07-31-2006, 11:07 AM

I cant argue with that, but even the best 38mm fans - those SanAces you sell - @5v arent even close to what I consider "silent" as far as fans go.

Personally I'm in love with my 140x25, 62CFM yates :)

Anyway, the fact remains that PAs performance lead is fairly considerable @ low airflow - though the real airflow might be pretty close considering how low the backpressure on PAs is with theire sub-10fpi count.

Even if youre usually running more CFM than a Yate gives, the fact that they have about 1/2 the waterflow restriction compared to other rads makes them worth it, imo.

But then again, I've always believed in investing in the best and sticking with it for the long-term. And im also prepared to sacrifice component budget for cooling... YMMV :)

eXa

07-31-2006, 11:11 AM

oh btw.
J-Mag; can u please start to sell 14cm yates?

Radical_53

07-31-2006, 11:24 AM

@j-mag: True, but for me the thing to undervolt fans is to make them really silent. I haven't seen any 38mm fan that has a good bearing/motor noise, compared to 25mm models.
Plus, you don't need any more air or static pressure on a PA.

J-Mag

07-31-2006, 11:39 AM

I cant argue with that, but even the best 38mm fans - those SanAces you sell - @5v arent even close to what I consider "silent" as far as fans go.

Yeah SPCR people would freak out at a 5v Sanyo Denki. I don't know what kinda environments you guys have your RIG in but, my ambient noise level is easily louder than San Aces at 7v even...

I guess if you left your computer on during the night I can see why you would want super silence, but 5v deniki's wouldn't bother me unless the rig was like 2 or 3 feet away from my head.

J-Mag

07-31-2006, 11:44 AM

@j-mag: True, but for me the thing to undervolt fans is to make them really silent. I haven't seen any 38mm fan that has a good bearing/motor noise, compared to 25mm models.

I agree motor noise tends to be higher on 38mm fans, but they have more resistance to overcome than 25mm fans...

Plus, you don't need any more air or static pressure on a PA.

If you are using your radiator externally sure, but if you have it mounted where normally your intake/outake fans would be then the additonal cfm helps keep normal flow within the case.

J-Mag

07-31-2006, 11:45 AM

oh btw.
J-Mag; can u please start to sell 14cm yates?

Didn't know they were that popular. Although maybe it is a new trend?

creidiki

07-31-2006, 11:48 AM

I don't know what kinda environments you guys have your RIG in but, my ambient noise level is easily louder than San Aces at 7v even...
Lets put it this way - right now the loudest thing in my room is my hard drives, and theyre inside a soundprooofed case :D

Thats mostly because my D14s spin down to 4.15v when coolant temps are under 26c, like it is now. All internal, ofc.

Didn't know they were that popular. Although maybe it is a new trend?
Something I started, I'm afraid :3

eXa

07-31-2006, 12:13 PM

Lets put it this way - right now the loudest thing in my room is my hard drives, and theyre inside a soundprooofed case :D

Thats mostly because my D14s spin down to 4.15v when coolant temps are under 26c, like it is now. All internal, ofc.

Something I started, I'm afraid :3

i wanted those before you got them. just cant remember where i heard of those in the first place... hm i think maybe it was from you! so never mind me :D

l2obert

07-31-2006, 12:23 PM

@ original post; maybe this chart can help. Courtesy of BillA

http://img2.imagepile.net/images/IYIENACE/7215billachart.gif

I read many threads says BIX are only for 100+CFM fans.
Bad news I have already got a BIX3 :(
However I need silence when I dont OC my PC.
So the question is if the performance difference is huge comparing BIP3(Or any dual flow rads) and BIX3 with low CFM fans?

10 Degree Celsius differance or more?Even further 20C maybe?

Thank you.

voigts

07-31-2006, 10:03 PM

Depends on how slow you run your fans. Up to 4k @ low speed, between PA and MCR/GT. BIP/BIX are even worse.

Considering that temp diff between a decent CPU block and a Storm MP-05 LE are usually in the 1-2k range, I call that pretty good value for money :)

Depends on how slow you run your fans. Up to 4k @ low speed, between PA and MCR/GT. BIP/BIX are even worse.

Considering that temp diff between a decent CPU block and a Storm MP-05 LE are usually in the 1-2k range, I call that pretty good value for money :)

Please enlighten my non-metricfied self. 4k and 1-2k translates into what in celcius?

What I am after is how much of a temperature difference based on an estimated watt output of your components can be expected between a PA120.3 and a BIPIII with yate loons at low speed? How do you actually calculate this?

creidiki

07-31-2006, 10:09 PM

1 kelvin = 1 celcius. only diff is kelvin 0 = absolute 0.

you can guesstimate the diff youd get by looking at the loop Radical_53 used and working out if you have more heat (bigger delta) or less (lower) and accounting for how good your pump is.

actual proper calculation would require you to derive your loop c/w, and thats simply not doable because we dont have accurate enough data/modelling of everything in a loop.

voigts

07-31-2006, 11:07 PM

Thanks for the info creidiki. That is helpful. I am going to be buying another rad soon and am trying to figure out what is the best way to go for what I can afford. It's hard to justify $115 + $20 for a shroud for a PA120.3 over $60 for a Black Ice GTS for only 4c or so. Money (limited quantity thereof) can sure be a pain.

Radical_53

08-01-2006, 01:58 AM

@j-mag: Sure, internal mount adds some restriction to air, no doubt about that. But: A PA + shroud does not scale that much with fan rpm when externally mounted. So, as a conclusion, it doesn't need to much air to go through to perform well.
Now if you mount it internally, the only difference might be that you'd need to run your fans a little faster. But just a little ;) The YL I used for the test were running max at 9.5V, or 1200rpm. So there's still some performance in reserve to deal with added restriction from an internal mount.
Also, internal mounting would be much worse for most of the other rads, as they needed more air to perform all the way.

About hearing fans, I think the cause is that many European houses don't have AC, plus they have very thick and heavy walls. Some more noise doesn't matter in the summer, but all the other time of the year it's really painful.

@voigts: I used the system from my sig for the test, so you can try to find out where you think yours might be considering heat output.

creidiki

08-01-2006, 06:17 AM

It's hard to justify $115 + $20 for a shroud for a PA120.3 over $60 for a Black Ice GTS for only 4c or so.
Its a heck of a lot easyer than trying to justify a Storm over an Apogee for 1-2c...

Marci

08-01-2006, 06:23 AM

Especially when you consider you could run TWO Thermochill rads, and still suffer less flow restriction than you currently get with ONE from any other brand...

voigts

08-01-2006, 06:41 AM

Its a heck of a lot easyer than trying to justify a Storm over an Apogee for 1-2c...

Very valid point. Or in my case, a Storm over a good old MCW6002.

creidiki

08-01-2006, 06:48 AM

jimmyz

08-01-2006, 07:23 AM

went to thermochills website and saw this:
"Biggest surprise to me was that a PA with the shroud was able to maintain a performance level at 600rpm that all other rads needed 1200rpm to get to. If it comes to low noise, nothing is even close to the PA at this time." - Radiical53 @ XtremeSystems

i guess when radiical53 speaks even the manufacturers listen!!!
ps: tell them i need a pa120.3 maybe they will give me one:D

link:http://www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php

Marci

08-01-2006, 07:51 AM

went to thermochills website and saw this:
That'd be because I work for the manufacturer... hence the big "ThermoChill" logo in my sig... :D

Radical_53

08-01-2006, 09:04 AM

@jimmy: Well, for me it's nice to see that someone appreciates my work and does believe in the results. So for me, as I do appreciate their efforts to build such a strong rad, they earned the award for an outstanding product.
From the tests I did so far, it was the first time that one single product outperformed the rest of the competition so much. Like on a CPU block review, there were 3 awards given, as three blocks were too close together to choose a #1, even more as each of them was specialized in some way. On a GPU block review, 2 awards were given as again they were too close together and each of them had its special features.
But here, it was too obvious and too clear to leave me another choice :)

voigts

08-01-2006, 09:55 AM

Stick to your 6002 and invest in the rad, imo.

Block is easyer to replace (you dont have to remod your case) and you can find some good deals on storms if you keep an eye out on FS/Fleebay.

Rad/Pump are a better investment than blocks, generally :)

I am going to build another case soon so remoding is not an issue. Now I just have to decide between the Swiftech MCR or the Thermochill. I like my passive car rad but the size of it is kind of getting to be a pain.

Thomas FJ

08-02-2006, 04:00 AM

At 1200rpm, diff in coolant temp (in the Pro's favour) is apparently 0.2k
At 900rpm, 1.3k
At 400rpm, 1.8k

In terms of flow restriction, at 4lpm, both rads exhert a 17% drop in flow rates (acc to Radiical's results published in HardwareLuxx Mag - a german national publication, May 2006). Same results show PA120.3 to whip everyone else's butt when it comes to performance at lowest noise.

Performance order (best to worst) based on final coolant temp at 600rpm (LOW airflow):

Thermochill PA120.3
Watercool HTSF
Watercool HTSF3-x
Cooltek Maxistream / Swiftech MCR
Black Ice GT
Black Ice Extreme
Alphacool NexXxos Pro
Black Ice GT X-Flow
Black Ice Extreme X-Flow
Alphacool NexXxos Extreme

At 900rpm:

ThermoChill
Cooltek
BI GT
WC HTSF
BIGT-XFlow
WC HTSF3-x
NexXxos Pro
BIX
NexXxos Extreme
BIX-XFlow

At 1200rpm:

ThermoChill
Cooltek
BIGT
BIGT-XFlow
BIX
NexXxos Pro
NexXxos Extreme
HTF3-x
HTSF
BIX-XFlow

Restrictivity to flow (drop in flow rates - smaller the % the better), tested at 4lpm with DDC+

ThermoChill - 6%
HTFX3-x - 14%
BIGT - 17%
BIGT XFlow - 17%
BIX - 17%
BIX XFlow - 17%
HTSF - 17%
Cooltek - 18%
NexXxos Xtreme - 23%
NexXxos Pro - 27%

Radiical53 would have to drop in to explain these results in any more detail... I can't read german!

That is interesting testing indeed, but are we comparing apples to apples?

Just listing some spec's from the test of the "new" generation of rads:

Size:
GTS______396 x 30 x 132 mm
Cooltek___402 x 34 x 130 mm
PA_______427 x 60 x 127 mm

Weight:
GTS______880 g
Cooltek___1.060 g
PA_______2.100 g

Can anybody see anything "fishy"?

The PA is by faaaaarrrr the largest rad in that test, which no one takes into consideration...
Is it no wonder that the PA is the better radiator then perfomance and flowwise?

If the Cooltek or GTS was at the same (over)size as the PA, don't you think it would get MUCH more run for it's money or even it would start getting into trouble?
/Thomas

creidiki

08-02-2006, 04:06 AM

Thomas FJ

08-02-2006, 04:38 AM

No. What you'd get is an extremely restrictive radiator that would take ludicrously high static pressure/cfm to go anywhere.

Cooltek/MCR = 12fpi, BIX (high cfm rad) 12fpi and nearly as thick as PA. So basically, a Cooltek/MCR as thick as a PA = HE, BIX.

Lets not talk about the GT, at 30fpi it woudl be like a brick wall.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but please try to understand more about radiator design before making that kind of comment. Part of the weight of the PA is in the armature, because the fpi count is so low (thats what makes it so good at low cfm) that according to marci the rads were twistable.

Ofcourse you have to rethink the FPI and fin design if you made the Cooltek or GTS 50% thicker, but that is not the point here :)

It is that the PA is far larger than it's competitors and therefore it's better... When it comes to rads the size of is quite a huge factor regarding it's performence. Ofcouse design matters, but size is, if not, more important...

Could you please explain further your statement below:
Cooltek/MCR = 12fpi, BIX (high cfm rad) 12fpi and nearly as thick as PA. So basically, a Cooltek/MCR as thick as a PA = HE, BIX.

According to Hardwareluxxx the Cooltek is 34mm thick and the PA 60mm thick..
/Thomas

jimmyz

08-02-2006, 05:09 AM

[QUOTE]@jimmy: Well, for me it's nice to see that someone appreciates my work and does believe in the results.[/QUOTE

i built my first water cooling set-up without xtreme systems.....it did ok i guess , then i bought danger den parts and built a better 2 loop setup. now that i understand more (thanks:D ) i'm finally gonna build what i started out trying to do. and hopefully i'll get it all installed before my better half see's the bank statement..;)

septim

08-02-2006, 05:57 AM

it would seem that the choice of rad has always been the consumer's
hence the PA is far more expensive than others, hence also far better performer

its still freedom of choice to choose whats the best of the best rad...

your free to mount it anywhere in your case, be it on the floor of your case
since the only cards most used is a vid card and sound card...
or anywhere else with a little case modding of course.

creidiki

08-02-2006, 05:58 AM

Ofcourse you have to rethink the FPI and fin design if you made the Cooltek or GTS 50% thicker, but that is not the point here :)

It is that the PA is far larger than it's competitors and therefore it's better... When it comes to rads the size of is quite a huge factor regarding it's performence. Ofcouse design matters, but size is, if not, more important...

Could you please explain further your statement below:
Cooltek/MCR = 12fpi, BIX (high cfm rad) 12fpi and nearly as thick as PA. So basically, a Cooltek/MCR as thick as a PA = HE, BIX.

According to Hardwareluxxx the Cooltek is 34mm thick and the PA 60mm thick..
/Thomas
No, not really.

PA is under 10fpi, so it *HAS* to be bigger or it woudlnt perform very well.

In the same way, 12fpi rads designed for low-cfm cant very thick, or they pose too much air resistance, and you end with a BIX (which is 12fpi, and about as thick as a PA) which isnt suitable for low-cfm.

And the GT is 30fpi, so that even more xtreme in that sense.

So no, theyre directly comparable. Each company made their own choices viz. fpi and that decides how thick the radiator could be, and vice-versa. And each company made their own choices viz how much extra stuff they wanted on their rads - inbuilt shrouds, bleed valves, fan spacing.

Of course the PA is going to be bigger and heavyer, its fpi is extremely low so it has to be longer and have a thicker armature or you can twist it with your hands, plus its got a 5mm inbuilt shroud.

The GT is the other extreme, its designed to be extremely thin, and has no inbuilt shroud so its obviously going to be very light.

Just because other companies dont include the same features you cant say theyre not directrly comparable, thats like saying you cant directly compare an A64 and a Conroe because one has OoO read commands and one doesent.

Radical_53

08-02-2006, 06:07 AM

Marci

08-02-2006, 06:09 AM

The simple fact is, it's a comparison of the AVAILABLE triple radiators out there. Regardless of spec and price, they are all triple radiators that are commonly chosen between amongst the watercooling communities.

Now they have a performance ranking order.

Yes, some of the reasons why one outperforms another are obvious. Others are not. The overall size has no bearing on the flow restriction figures for instance... if anything, they'd have the OPPOSITE effect. Weight is irrelevant. Different materials weigh more than other materials. Our sidewalls are made of some fairly weighty stuff, and this has no bearing on performance whatsoever.

The design goal for the PA Series was to achieve AS MUCH PERFORMANCE AS POSSIBLE out of every bit of airflow provided, and liquid flow provided - an exercise in efficiency more than anything else... which as a side result produced a rad that excelled at all airflows... but the design and specification was necessary to match the ridiculously low airflows, and maintain the liquid flows that folks choose to use/need in watercooling today to give them the best possible performance whilst adhering to a standard 120mm fan-based format. It was designed for a specific purpose. The fact that others chose not to design for that purpose isn't our concern really...

The rad was also designed to be aimed at the market who were purchasing the StormG4 block in their droves, because regardless of cost, it was the best performer (and still is in many ppl's opinions)... hence the designer of that block came up with the ALMOST perfect rad that you see available now as the PA series (heh - we made sure we kept an ace of his up our sleeves in reserve should the time come) to match the same criteria used when designing that block. That same designer has also said that the DDC 18w version with modded top is the perfect pump for our application... we now have the almost Utopian Watercooling Kit where efficiency and performance blend perfectly, and thus the obvious result is either more performance than the rest assuming same airflow, or same performance as the rest but using less airflow thus less noise - meets the need of the silent and performance markets. Keeping it out of the "easy to mount / locate, cheap as chips" market just makes it that bit more desirable for those who have money to spend...

One could make the statement that when it comes to performance and noise, our radiators match the needs more than anyone elses does. No-one else went to the extremes required to support the ultra low airflow crowd, whilst still providing them with the maximum performance that could possibly be achieved.

The beleif that rads needed to be thinner to be less restrictive to airflow, which was the basis for many design decisions with competitors, can now be completely thrown out of the window... as it's now a myth. At the same FPI, it's a fact... but when the FPI is matched to the depth, the combined effect is bordering on perfection when it comes to % efficiency of the radiator in all aspects of performance.

Hell, the only reason G1/4" is used on all the other rads is as a result of a popularity contest, not the common sense that states larger is better for performance with bugger all cost difference particularly... why exactly?? I remember when all rads had soldered on pipe fittings... they weren't removeable and changeable... Only reason G1/4" fittings are popular everywhere now is because so many companies use it, despite the fact that should those companies have chosen G3/8", that would now be the popular fitting everyone was searching for and everyone would be seeing better performance, and thus G3/8" would be as widely available as G1/4" currently is. As a company, all we've ever wanted to do was create the best PERFORMING gear, and wave the flag high for UK Manufacturers in this scene... of which there are now none but us (don't go touting up names - they all buy their stuff from China and rebadge it before ya even start when it comes to anything affecting performance rather than aesthetics). Couldn't give a toss about looks, price etc. Performance rules. The same withstands for everything we've ever undertaken. If the others want to take on the same objective, they they are free to do so - no-one is stopping them other than their own objectives... which may not be the same as ours and thus the product differences you see before you. Suffice to say, performance could still be improved, but at the moment it would involve added cost that we aren't ready to implement at the moment. To put out yer full hand just marks the end of your game... we don't want to make millions and achieve world domination... with our rads widely available everywhere. We like the l'il bit of exclusivity that there is to a TC Rad...

When it comes to convenience of installation, and consumed space, or for some cost (dependant upon location) ours may not match those needs. So it ultimately depends for what reason you are buying watercooling... if you want the quietest possible with the best performance possible, buy ours. If you don't, then buy someone elses as otherwise you're buying ours purely to willywave with. However, we can't determine nor influence a customers reason to buy. We can only state facts, and those facts can only be performance figures. Anything else is assumption.

With your arguments, you cannot compare ANYTHING. All CPU Waterblocks share differing dimensions internally and externally, different weights, as do most HSFs, as does ANYTHING to do with watercooling.

A CPU Waterblock is still a CPU Waterblock, and therefore subject to comparison against other blocks and ranked by performance, regardless of size etc. Same goes for heatsinks...

A triple radiator is still a triple radiator...

A Ferrari and a Noble are both supercars...

A CBR1000 and an R1 are both superbikes...

All share different weights and dimensions, all are pitted head to head frequently...

Cor... I've got blisters on me fingers...!! (think I'm done now... that Edit button can get addictive)

voigts

08-02-2006, 07:24 AM

I'll say it is refreshing to see someone (Marci and Thermochill) take pride in their work. I get so sick of cheap chinese crap in every corner of every store. You are making me more and more get the itch to go ahead and hit the pa120.3 order button.

Marci

08-02-2006, 07:30 AM

To summarise... IIRC, the way it all came up before design even began was... What are the two most asked questions AFTER someone's bought a WC Kit...??

Generally -

1) How do I get it quieter without it hurting my temps
2) How do I get better temps without hurting my ears

We built something that effectively formed an answer to both. "Replace current rad and fans with..."

creidiki

08-02-2006, 07:46 AM

... hence the designer of that block came up with the ALMOST perfect rad that you see available now as the PA series (heh - we made sure we kept an ace of his up our sleeves in reserve should the time come)
*uses super-sikrit ninja skillz to stealzors*

Thomas FJ

08-02-2006, 08:24 AM

@thomas: The HTF3-X is also ~2.1kg and also 60mm thick. Doesn't perform as well, so that's not the point where all the performance comes from.
Also, as creidiki stated before, it's the manufacturers choice how big they're making it in the end. Also, it's their choice to include things like a shroud, which no one else does.

The HTF3 is an "old school" rad and is not from the new generation of rads as PA, GTS and Cooltek, and therefore it doesn't perform that well...

Just because other companies dont include the same features you cant say theyre not directrly comparable, thats like saying you cant directly compare an A64 and a Conroe because one has OoO read commands and one doesent.

This is NOT an attack on they way the PA is build and how TC have chosen to build it, but a comment to WHY it is better...
The review and the quotes doesn't state anything about the PA is twice as thick as some of the others, which is what I'm trying to say...

Bottom linie:
The PA is best, but comes with a down side, the larger size.
/Thomas

Marci

08-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Well, technically it does mention it in the review, if you've read it... rather than the figures taken from the review that were posted in this thread - in the 1st line of the PA's section...

“The PA is a radiator of superlatives. It’s bigger, stronger and more powerful than all other contendants, but also more expensive, if you take the price for the (very useful) accessoires and the shipping from the UK into account. But what do you get for your money? As you take it out of the package, you can feel that this is something special in your hands. With much love to useful details, completely manufactured in England, comes a matte black, 2.1kg heavy radiator seeking for equivalents. It has mounting holes for fans on both sides... *snip* ...Also, the huge size is a problem here and there if someone has to fit a PA into a rather small case. The amount of space needed to make it work efficiently is significantly larger than of many other radiators, as there should be some clearance left to other components to provide proper function.

Remember, all I've posted here is figures from the review... if you want the review in it's entirety, that's all in German. The English Translation of the Thermochill bit is on the PA120's page at www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php as is the link to the German source material.

tommrussell

08-02-2006, 05:26 PM

nice speech Marci , puts things in perspective thanks for the great read

now go and put something on those burns hehehe

voigts

08-02-2006, 08:13 PM

Well marci you proved your point and talked me into it. I ordered a PA120.3 today from Dangerden. I was especially motivated by the 20% coupon PAGLAN06 (OC forums cyberdeals) which saved me $25. $105.88 US shipped is a good deal.

septim

08-02-2006, 10:02 PM

lucky you man, early congrats on the purchase...
now to find g3/8 metal fittings to go on that, or stick with the plastic fittings
that they come with

Radical_53

08-03-2006, 01:34 AM

@thomas: It'a condenser style, yes. But the company believes in that and put a new model on the market. The HTSF is just a thinner version of its predecessor, still those two do work quite well. I thought they'd be way off, yet they weren't.

To comment to the review, I actually don't *know* why exactly the TC is better. All I can see is that they did take care of every little detail that might be interesting performance-wise. Like the 3/8" fittings, no paint / powder coat on the fins and so on. Technically, the thickness does make sense to me considering the low FPI count. As you do need some "area" for the heat transfer, you'll have to get it from somewhere. Fin design adds to that, as they're not just straight as many other competitors use it.

Cathar

08-10-2006, 04:12 PM

I really have to thank Marci and Thermochill. As the designer and pre-production tester for the PA120 radiators, TC gave me carte-blanche to fiddle with the design parameters to the limits of manufacturing practicality, and TC trusted me to push the PA design in a way to maximise its performance, and only its performance. For my part I focused primarily on the design of the core finned section itself, and left the built-in shroud, bracing, and end-tank design in the hands of TC. In short, the design goal was to maximise performance in a 120.x form factor.

Of course we all kept in mind that the radiator had to fit within a case, so the whole thing couldn't be much thicker than about 60mm, to allow for at least singular 38mm fans to be fitted and have the overall depth with fan be no more than 10cm (4") such that while it would be largish in-case, (for a PA120.1) it should never obstruct anything in any well designed midi-ATX case or any larger case.

The reason for the PA's dimensions is wholly focused around performance concerns. It's easy to assume that it performs better than other radiator just because it's thicker and heavier, but thickness is but only one of a multitude of parameters to balance out. When you change thickness, you're actually altering at least 4 dependent variables, 2 of which work against you as you increase thickness.

While it's easy to sit back and criticise the PA's thickness based upon a whole host of other cloned radiators, the thing is that the PA is the only purpose-built radiator on the market that steps outside of the box, breaks the clone mould, and hangs it all out for maximum performance with minimal noise. It is merely an additional product in the marketplace for those who want a choice other than buying one of a host of similarly sized, similarly performing radiator clones.

No one's twisting anyone's arm to buy the things, but the important thing to keep in mind is that at least the choice is there, and watercooling users do have the choice to buy a product that is a no-compromises performing radiator product that is purposely designed for their low-noise water-cooling needs. When TC and I were bandying the design about, the point that always stuck in my head was posts on water-cooling forums complaining about radiator fan noise, about people dropping out of water-cooling because of it, and people buying these monster 100cfm 38mm fan units just to get acceptable radiator performance.

We refused to believe that enough had been done to explore the limits of what was truly possible in the slow-slim-line-fan, low-noise environment that water-coolers seemed to be searching for. It just so happens that in designing a radiator for that need that we ended up designing a radiator that outperforms everything else right up to those large ear-bleeding monster fan units, which in my mind was outside of the design goals and acceptable noise levels, but we were happy to have achieved such nonetheless.

Oh, and in case anything thinks that the above is said for purposes of profit. I have to date not received any monetary payment from TC, nor do I ever expect to do so, and this suits me just fine. I have a number of prototype TC radiator units here, and that is about the extent of it. I offered my time and efforts purely to advance PC radiator design beyond the rut that it seemed to be stuck in and am really just thrilled that in TC that I had a willing manufacturer to make the dream a reality.

SiGfever

08-10-2006, 05:22 PM

I am a thirty year HVAC technician and I have seen my share of evaporators, condensers and radiators. When I opened the box and took the ThermoChill out I was impressed with the weight and the construction detail. The time and thought put into these Titans of the Cooling World was very obvious.

Upon further inspection and comparison with a BIPro II I realized that this WAS the pinnacle of perfection. The G3/8 BSPP fittings were further proof of flow consideration without regard to expense. If you can't get the water in and out easily performance will suffer.

After hooking up the rad with 7/16"id Tygon tubing and bleeding the system I was amazed at how low I could under volt my Yate Loons without sacrificing performance. This has made for a very quiet and efficient system that still impresses me.

So my hat is off to Marci and Cathar for giving us a rad that all other manufactures will aspire to.

A toast to you mates..... :toast: :toast: :clap: :clap:

tommrussell

08-10-2006, 05:43 PM

Radical_53

08-11-2006, 03:05 AM

It truely is. Maybe the part that I like most about it is attention to detail. Every little bit was looked at and optimized to provide the best function possible. You normally don't see that on standard production, mostly on limited editions only. Kudos for that!

Marci

08-11-2006, 03:25 AM

I really have to thank Marci and Thermochill.
No need to thank me d00d... cos it's all comin straight back at ya...! We'd have been lost and just another of the clones if you hadn't proposed the foundations of the PA160 back on ProC all that time ago... s'all been you since then, and the next (& possibly final?) step forward from the PA120 series is still your baby.

I just look forward to the day when I can get over to Aus (pref. permanently), stage you a 2 day MusicFestival, and watch you disappear into the distance as I attempt to race you round the track of yer choosing!!

One day...

nealh

08-11-2006, 08:28 AM

Wow...I own a PA160 but I want a PA120.2 or 120.3 and G7..now more than never. Marci and Cathar you guys are awesome...the WC community is lucky to have you on our side:toast:

I just need a new case and skilles to modd for placement of 120.3 rad...

I spent $90 on PA160..$110 or so for 120.3...no big deal

Hell with what most waste on new fans and crap the extra $50-60 on a PA120.3(or less for a PA120.2) is nothing....

If I understood more and had not stuck to internal solution for my P180(I was afraid to try and cut the top of the case because of a lack of skills)..I would not hesitate getting a 120.3(I think you could fit it in the top with Panaflo 120x38 L1A or better yet 3 YL fans)...

Just have real doubts on my skills to cut out holes for it properly...

not to mention my wife who last night again said..WCing was a big waste of money..right..you gained nothing...:slapass:

creidiki

08-11-2006, 08:34 AM

I want a case that can have 2 front-mounted PA160s =P

Then I'll ge someone *cough*marci*cough* to make me shrouds for 140mm fans, and run 2 loops. And get no real advantage over my current loop, but itll be cool ^_^

Marci

08-11-2006, 08:40 AM

If you were gonna head down that route, I'd do the endtanks reprofiled so that the barb came out the end, pointing at the rad next door... would need to know whether mounting with barbs top and bottom or barbs either side... and then a one-piece shroud to cover the pair of `em.

2x PA160 with 1x ^^ on each ^ : CPU - 15.8 GPU - 15.1
PA120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 15 GPU - 15

Meh - lose a degree on the CPU, but lose a fan in the process... but that's using TECs with elevated heatload... on a non-tec'd setup I doubt you'd notice any performance difference at all... but the loss of a fan either way you look at it is less noise...

(Hmmm... in effect making one large dualpass rad out of two single pass rads... interesting... that is of course assuming you're using em on same loop in series... which I doubt you will be, so ignore ALL my suggestions above!)

Marci

08-11-2006, 08:43 AM

And MountainMods will do you a custom UFO to accomodate the rads... with the proper squared mounting holes for the entire PA160 frontal surface...

Only tricky part would be grills for em to protect fin damage...

creidiki

08-11-2006, 09:00 AM

Yup, 2 separate loops would be the idea... DDC-Pro for the GPU/NB loop prolly, Storm + RD-30 @ 15v on the CPU (G7 if I'm lucky, heh).

With the small digital sensors in the TBan BigNG I could control each loop's fan independently.

As for grills, as a 10yr heavy smoker it would have to be those thin-mesh metal grill air filters, or the rads will be clogged inside 2 weeks :rolleyes:

Ah well, I'm forward-planning 6 months in the future already, I oughta stop doing that :lol2:

In any case, I'd want it done on the upcoming horizon series of UFOs.

Oh and I'd want to find out if push or pull is better with 140mm fans on a PA160 before getting the case made, obv :)