evap in progress [Archive] - XtremeSystems Forums

littleowl

07-25-2006, 05:24 PM

ok guys I wanted to show you that I am working very slow but am working on moving up in to the world of the Phase Change world!!!! I have some early pics of my home made evap! let me know what you think! :stick:

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5220/dcp3934ju8.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp3934ju8.jpg)

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8262/dcp3935lc0.th.jpg (http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp3935lc0.jpg)

:edit:
my cap line will run right through the middle of the discs!

Thrilla

07-25-2006, 07:02 PM

Maybe make the holes bigger? That core looks pretty wide.

littleowl

07-26-2006, 10:42 PM

what holes are you talking about Thrilla?

Maybe make the holes bigger? That core looks pretty wide.

littleowl

07-28-2006, 12:38 AM

hello is anyone going to comment on this thing!! I would like to know what everyone thinks about my ideas so far!!! I have done a couple of other things now so I will try and post a pic tomorrow night sometime!!

Thrilla

07-28-2006, 06:56 AM

Picture totally off scale but shows what I meant.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4756/evapca3.jpg

The core looks kinda thick.

SoddemFX

07-28-2006, 08:02 AM

I think it is not a bad first design, i think a limitation to performance are the brass washers used to separate the layers.

I think your dimentions are good :)

Cutting the spacers into the two lower levels will work much better in my opinion. If you have access to even a basic lathe, this would be very easy to do.

Regards,

Tom

[XC] mysticmerlin

07-28-2006, 05:23 PM

Cutting the spacers into the two lower levels will work much better in my opinion. If you have access to even a basic lathe, this would be very easy to do.

Regards,

Tom

Why not just loose the washers all together and braze them flat on each other?

littleowl

07-28-2006, 09:16 PM

I was thinking about losing the washer!! I have done some more but I didn't have time to get the pics on my pin drive so I could have posted them tonight!! I will try tomorrow to get them posted!!

[XC] mysticmerlin

07-28-2006, 10:21 PM

hope yours turns out. I have 2 in the scrap pile and now working on a 3rd. :(

SoddemFX

07-29-2006, 02:33 AM

Why not just loose the washers all together and braze them flat on each other?

Thats sort of what i meant, in that he cut the step into the bottom two levels :)

Tom

[XC] mysticmerlin

07-29-2006, 04:38 AM

but to save work he could just use washers if I am getting you right. Right?
I am saying just put the 1/2" disks on each other and braze them shut so the path has to fallow the "drilled" areas up the evap.
Am I getting you right Tom?

SoddemFX

07-29-2006, 08:34 AM

He could do, but it wont work as well, especially if he uses brass washers. What i meant was that he machine the bottom two layers to form the step :)

Tom

littleowl

07-29-2006, 12:55 PM

Tom but if I would have done that then I shouldn't have but the channel and holes in!! I would have just notched it on the side!??

littleowl

07-29-2006, 01:10 PM

here is the base I plan on sanding it down a good bit thinner!!

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1738/dcp3937yv4.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp3937yv4.jpg)

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9607/dcp3939mi1.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp3939mi1.jpg)

littleowl

07-30-2006, 07:44 PM

hum so does anyone have any think they think is wrong, right, or should be modified to tell me about?? I would like some ideas about it! Thanks

jinu117

07-30-2006, 09:56 PM

Nothing is ever wrong. it just might not as good as you hoped, but it won't be wrong :) just go through trial and error like most of us and find out what changes what for you. If you can find the finding and report back to help all of us... even better. If sharing is not an idea, still it should benefit you on your rev.2, rev.3, etc.

[XC] mysticmerlin

07-30-2006, 11:42 PM

G H Z

07-31-2006, 12:15 AM

Yes but if everyone did it the same as the last guy then you would never get any new or better ideas either. I've never built my own blocks but in my opinion this one could benefit from more surface area as well as being one piece on the core itself. Still I'm sure this will work alright, and for a first go with limited tools it's very nice.

littleowl

07-31-2006, 12:32 AM

Thanks GHZ I am not saying I want to use the same idea as someone else because if that was the case I would just buy a chilly1 and call it quites!!
I am not the first person to make a "Baker Style Evap" so were is the other 20 or so people who have made them and what did they learn?
I am just wanting other people to that have a lot more experance then me to let me know what they think and what they would recomend me changing!! oh and by the way I only had flat stock and a small pipe!! I would love to have the 50bucks it takes to buy a nice pice of round stock and 2000 to buy a nice lathe to make it a lot better!!

jinu117

07-31-2006, 12:34 AM

So what is the point in the forum if no one will tell you what they have learned with there trial and errer experances!!!??????
If each person has to do it there self then what was the point of this thread?
Just my :2cents:

Honestly, here is where people differ on views. Let's get back to few things... now I don't REALLY want to make big fuss of things so think of this example as just isolated incidents that might help the iffy things about some knowledge sharing.
If anyone remembers incident with autocascade from Cryotek, who HAVE modified autocascade to run VERY cold on polycold, he gave us quite a bit of information. However, some of our members saw him witholding some information regarding portion of tuning... things didn't go too pleasantly and what I thought was valuable source of information and guidance disappeared. Mind you, he did give us quite a bit of good information... maybe not 100% to babysit us to get there... but quite a bit.
There has been many situation like this, where sometimes, due to nature of internet camaradarie, people expect too much from others for essentially other people.
In all honesty, if someone gives you free information out, you should be grateful, not demanding. That is just my 2c.
Another thing... what did YOU give to this community to be able to DEMAND from people? (not specifying certain person... just to those who read this to ponder over and maybe act a little friendlier).

littleowl

07-31-2006, 12:57 AM

[XC] mysticmerlin

07-31-2006, 02:13 AM

Should have kept my nose out of it.

G H Z

07-31-2006, 02:31 AM

This conversation isn't getting you guys anywhere, I'd focus on making your blocks and components. All it takes is a little time and energy and some simple forum searching on block design. You already have some suggestions, but apparently they are impossible so maybe you should test out the design you already have and see how it works.

littleowl

07-31-2006, 03:00 AM

Thanks again GHZ I plan on trying and testing it but I wanted to know if anyone has any openions on what I am trying and can tell me they did something and it didn't work!!
I must agree with you that this is not getting me anywhere, also not getting any new ideas because no one is talking to me! :( I know from what is said above and on a couple other threads I may just have to say the he|| with xs and move to some other forum that people will help and tell me I am fing everything up!!

jinu117

07-31-2006, 03:14 AM

jinu I think that maybe your missunderstanding mystic! I asked for an openion on what I am making and I am told figure it out on your own and do trial and error!! I plan on making it no matter what everyone said but I would like to here what others think about it because maybe my idea was good but someone may have told me I need to add a couple more holes in the middle for more serfice area then I would think about that and talk more about doing that and why!! I don't want you to tell me that the chilly1 is the only block around that works!! I may be able to get 4 disks to work better then a chilly block (it could happen :\) that is how you get ideas!! SoddemFX gave me an idea and I with what he said I have an idea for another evap that I plan on trying to do!! I and I think mystic are not trying to ask for a walkthrough just a little advice and openion!! That is what I thought forums were for?!?!?

Except... let's see... Baker is no longer around.
We have one version of stepper which technical detail they won't share (I think yours falls around somewhere in between).
We have other version of stepper which are totally different.
In all honesty, I really don't think we have QUALIFIED engineer who can use proper software to simlulate refrigerant behavior inside evaporator under different conditions.
We take guesses and stab at things in dark is what I see. Reason probably why you are getting, maybe this maybe that. I truely suggest just do what you have done first. make some variation changes and find out what works for you. Your design is FAR too off from any baker or stepper with too much changes on surface area, distribution of mass, and thermal interface layer that we have no idea of how it will work. (just guesses... and educated guesses... which might be flat out wrong).

G H Z

07-31-2006, 03:28 AM

I may just have to say the he|| with xs and move to some other forum that people will help and tell me I am fing everything up!!

Well that would be your loss. People have tried in this thread to help you but you seem to dismiss their advice unfortunately. Have a little patience and you will succeed, maybe even find some friends along the way.

littleowl

07-31-2006, 05:04 AM

Except... let's see... Baker is no longer around.
We have one version of stepper which technical detail they won't share (I think yours falls around somewhere in between).
We have other version of stepper which are totally different.
In all honesty, I really don't think we have QUALIFIED engineer who can use proper software to simlulate refrigerant behavior inside evaporator under different conditions.
We take guesses and stab at things in dark is what I see. Reason probably why you are getting, maybe this maybe that. I truely suggest just do what you have done first. make some variation changes and find out what works for you. Your design is FAR too off from any baker or stepper with too much changes on surface area, distribution of mass, and thermal interface layer that we have no idea of how it will work. (just guesses... and educated guesses... which might be flat out wrong).

and I understand that!!!! that is what I want to here wrong or not!! I am not trying to get any technical details!!! I just want to here from people that have messed with refrigerant and have tryed different stuff and have found that one thing don't work and one thing does!! I don't want experts or even engineers!! I just want :2cents:!! if I wanted engineers I would have just called up chilly and said make this!! I want to learn more about refrigeration an get more of an understanding! I don't want someone to just tell me I have to do everything this way! If I am sounding like an a$$ I don't mean too but I started this post to get a little input one the 25th then had to post again to get anyone to even say it looks like :banana::banana::banana::banana:!! I don't care it you tell me it is junk and don't do it I am still doing it but I want to know if you see something that may be a problem and how I may change it better!!! for a good example I need to make the track deeper or take off 1/4 inch from the bottom!! just my guess!! I don't know a darn thing about this and am wanting to learn it!! the only thing I got was "you should just get a solid pice of copper and mill it down!" I cant do that so I have to do with what I can and would like some of the people that has experance in this to give me pointers!

SoddemFX

07-31-2006, 05:07 AM

I think it is very good that you are making your own evaporator :)

I dont think you should not say things such as "to hell with XS", that would be a great loss to you. I dont think you will find another forums with anywhere near as much experience as you have here.

You seem to want to hear our "trial and error" in evaporator design, which i can understand. This is mine.

My evaporators have all been steppers of one form or another.

My first evaporator had several plates cut into a solid column, the capillary tube entered at the top and wound its way round to the base inside the evaporator. The fault with this design was that the central column was too narrow. This gives greatly increased resistance to the top plates, so much so that they might as well not be there. The performance of the first evaporator was poor.

Second evaporator has a widened central coloumn which was bored out to 7mm ID. The capillary tube entered the top of the column space, achieving partial evaporation before the refrigerant hit the base layer, after which the refrigerant travelled to the top of the evaporator in the normal stepper way. I havent been able to produce a better design than this yet, it works very well.

Third evap was a reverse V2 style stepper as it mounted upside down onto a graphics card. Difficult to get good performance from as when it was pretty flooded it would have a small margin before refrigerant slammed back along the suction line.

Fourth design was a vertical mounted stepper produced for a friend. Ok performance but the fault was that the plates were too wide apart, the top layers were too far from the base and had increased resistance, central hollow column was a touch too narrow (ive come to a figure of 22mm with 7mm ID bore being optimal in a four layer stepper).

Fifth design was a SLI GPU evap pair produced for a friend. Interesting concept with side suction and reverse style, worked ok but needs more surface area especially near the base.

Sixth design (Porcupine) is a better dimentioned V2 with a fifth plate. 40mm diameter 24mm column with 7mm bore. First plate 4mm, following plates 3mm, spacing bettween every plate is 4mm. Forward stepper with evaporation into hollow column, three 3mm exit holes from column onto one side of the base 30 degrees apart. Sixteen 10mm lengths of 1/16" copper rod are hammered into 1.55mm holes bored partially into central column wall. The ~40um of overlap is ok if you heat the evap and gently tap in the cold pins. It forms a good conductive join without solder. It should be finished in the coming weekend(s) and hope it will outperform my V2.

What do i think could be better with your design?

I think your base makes it difficult to get a good conduction path to the top layers.

I think you need to cut deeper to get more surface area.

I think you will have a lot of trouble getting a good brased join bettween the layers. 0.1mm of solder / brase in between the layers wont realy increase resistance at all, but its very hard to get a clean join without oxide and/or air in there as well. With the mass of your evaporator, getting up to temperature may take a long time which wont help with the oxide problem...

If you have a bench press drill (which it looks like you have), you can make a workable mill if you buy a 4" two axis cross vice (£27inc from Machine Mart here in the UK). Bolt it down well to the bed. Then with a 5mm end mill (£3 ebay) you have a workable mill. It works better than you'd think :)

Best of luck to you in your design. Spend money on tools when you can and always respect the people on these forums. The things you learn are worth a lot more that the tools you buy :D

Regards,

Tom

littleowl

07-31-2006, 05:08 AM

Well that would be your loss. People have tried in this thread to help you but you seem to dismiss their advice unfortunately. Have a little patience and you will succeed, maybe even find some friends along the way.

GHZ yes I have been helped by one person here and I really do appriciate it very much!! I am not trying to sound like an a$$ but ever since the sticky came up about stupid people telling noobs (like myself) to just put in propane and do it that way, came around no one seems to help anyone with anything!! I am not asking someone to walk me through building a cascade or anything like that!! I think all that helps me and I try to help others as much as I can!!

littleowl

07-31-2006, 05:37 AM

I think it is very good that you are making your own evaporator :)

I dont think you should say things such as "to hell with XS", that would be a great loss to you. I dont think you will find another forums with anywhere near as much experience as you have here.

You seem to want to hear our "trial and error" in evaporator design, which i can understand. This is mine.

My evaporators have all been steppers of one form or another.

My first evaporator had several plates cut into a solid column, the capillary tube entered at the top and wound its way round to the base inside the evaporator. The fault with this design was that the central column was too narrow. This gives greatly increased resistance to the top plates, so much so that they might as well not be there. The performance of the first evaporator was poor.

Second evaporator has a widened central coloumn which was bored out to 7mm ID. The capillary tube entered the top of the column space, achieving partial evaporation before the refrigerant hit the base layer, after which the refrigerant travelled to the top of the evaporator in the normal stepper way. I havent been able to produce a better design than this yet, it works very well.

Third evap was a reverse V2 style stepper as it mounted upside down onto a graphics card. Difficult to get good performance from as when it was pretty flooded it would have a small margin before refrigerant slammed back along the suction line.

Fourth design was a vertical mounted stepper produced for a friend. Ok performance but the fault was that the plates were too wide apart, the top layers were too far from the base and had increased resistance, central hollow column was a touch too narrow (ive come to a figure of 22mm with 7mm ID bore being optimal in a four layer stepper).

Fifth design was a SLI GPU evap pair produced for a friend. Interesting concept with side suction and reverse style, worked ok but needs more surface area especially near the base.

Sixth design (Porcupine) is a better dimentioned V2 with a fifth plate. 40mm diameter 24mm column with 7mm bore. First plate 4mm, following plates 3mm, spacing bettween every plate is 4mm. Forward stepper with evaporation into hollow column, three 3mm exit holes from column onto one side of the base 30 degrees apart. Sixteen 10mm lengths of 1/16" copper rod are hammered into 1.55mm holes bored partially into central column wall. The ~40um of overlap is ok if you heat the evap and gently tap in the cold pins. It forms a good conductive join without solder. It should be finished in the coming weekend(s) and hope it will outperform my V2.

Thanks that is helpfull!

What do i think could be better with your design?

I think your base makes it difficult to get a good conduction path to the top layers.

how would you fix this?

I think you need to cut deeper to get more surface area.

is that for all discs or just the base

I think you will have a lot of trouble getting a good brased join bettween the layers. 0.1mm of solder / brase in between the layers wont realy increase resistance at all, but its very hard to get a clean join without oxide and/or air in there as well. With the mass of your evaporator, getting up to temperature may take a long time which wont help with the oxide problem...

That was something I thought about that is one thing I plan on changing when I do rev2 :D
and or I want to do a stepper (if I can figure out a way to cut 1/2" copper in half!) kind of like the pic you drew for me!! :D

If you have a bench press drill (which it looks like you have), you can make a workable mill if you buy a 4" two axis cross vice (£27inc from Machine Mart here in the UK). Bolt it down well to the bed. Then with a 5mm end mill (£3 ebay) you have a workable mill. It works better than you'd think :)

Best of luck to you in your design. Spend money on tools when you can and always respect the people on these forums. The things you learn are worth a lot more that the tools you buy :D

Regards,

Tom

I will have to look around on ebay and stores around here for a drill press mill like your talking about, I have seen one before but it cost the guy that had it 300usd! I don't have even close to that much :rolleyes:

Thank you very much for your knowledge tom and just so you know I do feel that xs is the best forum out there but if everyone is going to ignore me and other people then I don't want a part of it!! If you don't know the answer then dont post but if you have learned anything then why not say "I don't know for sure but here is what happened to me when I made this!" or even tryed to make something!! we are all human and that is how we learn!!

SoddemFX

07-31-2006, 05:48 AM

At the moment you have a spiral on the base. I'd get rid of this and just have a deep 'C' cut into the base.

All disks, especially the base. with a design like yours i'd guess 6mm from bottom of channel to surface would be about right.

No, im talking about spending £30 so you can make a very basic, but functional, mill from your pillar / bench press drill. Just take small (~2mm) cuts at a time and it will work.

Without a lathe, i dont know how you'd go about a stepper.

Tom

DetroitAC

07-31-2006, 06:14 AM

I am a engineer who has worked on production evaporators. I have written some code to model the conduction-convection heat transfer in evaporators, and I am working on geometries that are able to be machined in production, and provide a proper balance of conduction area, convection surface and refrigerant velocity. The math and thermo...you can't do. The design of the evaporator, that's all just creativity and you may very well have some good ideas there.

Evaporator design is a very complex balance of tradeoffs between surface area, conduction area, refrgierant velocities, liquid distribution, manufacturability, mechanical durability, etc. etc.

The company I worked for in the evap department was building about 5 million evaps a year. When a new idea comes along, no one will believe any predictions or calculations. The tradeoffs are very complicated, refrigerant liquid distribution is impossible to model even with the best CFD. The way it's done in industry is exactly the way you will have to do it.

Build it, test it. Make improvements, build it, test it.

This is the reason why I am first building a test rig
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103330

A design is just an idea without some testing.

littleowl

07-31-2006, 11:21 AM

Without a lathe, i dont know how you'd go about a stepper.

Tom

don't know if it would work but me an mystic both had the idea to cut the 1/2" discs in half and but washers between them and just notch back in forth on one side of each disc!

littleowl

07-31-2006, 11:33 AM

[XC] mysticmerlin

08-01-2006, 08:41 AM

Except... let's see... Baker is no longer around.

I called it a disk evap and got 3 pm's saying it was a Baker style and call it as such if I wanted people to under stand what I was saying.

[XC] mysticmerlin

08-04-2006, 11:58 PM

I am an @ss, sorry

SoddemFX

08-05-2006, 05:00 AM

With all due respect, saying things like this wont get you anywhere. As for this "god mod" thing, you are wrong, the moderators are very reasonable. I know that if anyone had a differing viewpoint to a moderator they wouldn't have any risk of banning etc as long as they voiced their argument in a clear and mature fashion. Were all here to learn not necessarily be taught...

I dont know how you were crucified in PM, but the responses here are better than you could expect in any other forums. If i built a good single stage cooler and posted it here i'd expect less replies than you have in here after building your evaporator...

Anyway - What would you like people to say? What information do you want?

Tom

[XC] mysticmerlin

08-05-2006, 05:19 AM

No really, I am a @ss.

jinu117

08-05-2006, 09:48 AM

you Tom were more than helpful. The PM's I got were to save face in the "public eye" so as not to make the Mod ship off. We did do a stepper that night with washers as that is what we had. It is not running as of yet so I don't know if it works but anywho.
The point I am trying to make is that over on OC there were 3 of our members just all over this thread and we had to beg then get long posted instead of staying out of it.
I know I come off as an a$$hole. I am one of those people that says it like it is. I know I will get banded for even doing this to the thread but I feel it is worth it. I have seen people band for even less around here.
Again Tom you and Detroit were a help. The other one was well, Not.

Do you want to get banned? Geez.... there is only 2 acting moderator and I believe neither of us was thinking about that to begin with. Feel free to quote my pm sent to you to show off how I was planning to ban you. :stick:
Geez... some people REALLY need to get some common senses on approaching problem.

PS) what is your motive on instigating things when there isn't a problem to begin with? Please... no need to make things worse... which actually isn't too bad yet if your read through again other than you complaining.

[XC] mysticmerlin

08-06-2006, 02:16 AM

Sorry Little Owl for crapping on your thread. I am a @ss.
Hey Mod this is what it should say instead of Xtreme Member is I'm a @ss sorry!

Edit: I didn't think it was said that way. I just don't know how to talk nice anymore I guess. :( shoot me please.

bazx

08-06-2006, 02:41 AM

Sorry Little Owl for crapping on your thread. I am a @ss.
Hey Mod this is what it should say instead of Xtreme Member is I'm a @ss sorry!

lol dude you dont know when to quit