My Cascade

[sl4ck]

Well it's my cascade, it's an experimental version, compressors are weak, i'm not sure if they can perform well, we'll see, or later i'll change them ;) when i'll have time(€€'s). I don´t have 2º estage gas yet, neither it's getting easy to have it >(

Misses some brazing, 1º estage is complete, but you can get an ideia:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4046/dsc02212xa0.jpg


The HX:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/853/dsc02213cr1.jpg


1st Stage SLHX:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3524/dsc02214xd9.jpg


2nd Stage Desuperheater:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/9983/dsc02215yf5.jpg


1nd Stage Desuperheater:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8092/dsc02216mj6.jpg


Oil Separator e 2nd Stage Desuperheater:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6171/dsc02219ee5.jpg

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8246/dsc02218fb9.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7414/dsc02217sm5.jpg

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/2136/dsc02220oq0.jpg

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/9207/dsc02221ph5.jpg


2nd Stage SLHX for brazing:

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/7712/dsc02222ne9.jpg

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/8697/dsc02223tj6.jpg

[bazx]

good luck

[martinjon666]

OT: love the avatar bazx

yes, best of luck to you mate. looks good so far but without gasses you have only copper that is twisted nicely :D. hope everything goes as planned.

[Marvin]

Where i can see, you have a 1/3 HP at 1 first stage....
charged with 404A you can have a low temperature cascade....
What about the cut off valves ?
Boa sorte - Good luck :D

[sl4ck]

Where i can see, you have a 1/3 HP at 1 first stage....
charged with 404A you can have a low temperature cascade....
What about the cut off valves ?
Boa sorte - Good luck :D

Obrigado :) - Thanks
Yes 1st stage is Aspera 1/3HP, and i'll charge it with r404a, my doubt is @ 2nd stage, which is Aspera 1/4HP - 8,07 Displacement, and i don´t know if can handle CO2 or Etylene, even with SLHX in both stages and good desuperheaters.

I'll continue 2nd stage, then you'll see relief valve ;)

[SlackeR]

Do you realize how bad cascade attempt sounds? It sounds dangerous ;)
Give a nice looking project the credit it deserves ;)

[sl4ck]

I've thinked about it, but if you said, i already changed that, i don´t want people think in dangerous thing, i'll have all necessary precautions ;)

[SlackeR]

As i said, it is not looking dangerous at all ;)
I just don't think cascades are something one should "attempt" to build. I associate that word with a pretty large chance of failure :)
Have you asked Ricky where he gets 2nd stage gas? He might know someting as he is from Portugal too..

[sl4ck]

1st Stage up and running frozed, overcharged

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5308/dsc02229nf3.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1853/dsc02224se2.jpg


Overcharged pressures :eek: :eek: :eek:

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/1143/dsc02228vi5.jpg


HX frozed and UEI DT200 probe spot(Midle HX)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/4152/dsc02226dk2.jpg


1st stage SLHX frozed and whole succion line until compressor

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/715/dsc02227vv8.jpg



Well...here i have some doubts about 1st stage SLHX job, to get lower temps(less charge) it
doesn´t froze, i'm afraid it will not do he's job under load :(
What do you think?

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8793/dsc02231wq4.jpg

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8879/dsc02232rz7.jpg

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/153/dsc02233eq4.jpg


1st stage midle HX min temp and both pressures
What do you think about pressures?

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5725/dsc02247fp0.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3563/dsc02248rs7.jpg



Some new 2nd stage brazing job, ready to be cleaned

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8191/dsc02249lz6.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/382/dsc02250sy7.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3439/dsc02251eh6.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3742/dsc02252oa5.jpg


Releif Valve + 2nd stage SLHX to be brazed

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/4435/dsc02253nj3.jpg


what's the better HX place(in, midle, out?) to put thermometer probe to tune it properly?

[Nyx]

Pressures looks good. The temps could have been better if u were to insulate it a bit. This will give u more accurate readings and a chance to fine tune it better.

[Moc]

I think the best place for temp probe is at outlet.

[LukeXE]

Moc, you are thinking good ;)

[sl4ck]

2nd Stage SLHX brazed, cleaned and pressure testing ;)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9771/dsc02255vm2.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7374/dsc02254bz4.jpg

still hunting for ethylene :mad:

[LukeXE]

first you can play with co2 untill you have got ethylene, Am I right ?

[sl4ck]

No, not even got CO2 from decent price, here companies what we to rent those big tanks, they don´t rent the small ones with CO2 :slapass: , and it becames expensive, and i know i wont need such CO2, plus if i rent the big tank i think i have to rent it for years the spend all the CO2 and it becames even more expensive :mad: .

I'm trying to get someone who switch an empty CO2 tank from the beers with one full, because only beers companies do it, ususal gas companies don´t it, only with they rented or bought tanks. I know that beers CO2 have some water, but i think it's what i can get for a decent price for now.

Can i do anything with AR/CO2 mix from MIG soldering, purge or use it as refrigerant?

[bazx]

No, not even got CO2 from decent price, here companies what we to rent those big tanks, they don´t rent the small ones with CO2 :slapass: , and it becames expensive, and i know i want need such CO2, plus if i rent the big tank i think i have to rent it for years the spend all the CO2 and it becames even more expensive :mad: .

I'm trying to get someone who switch an empty CO2 tank from the beers with one full, because only beers companies do it, ususal gas companies don´t it, only with they rented or bought tanks. I know that beers CO2 have some water, but i think it's what i can get for a decent price for now.

Can i do anything with AR/CO2 mix from MIG soldering, purge or use it as refrigerant?

fire extinguishers have a small cylinder of co2 in them that you can use

[sl4ck]

isn´t mixed with the white powder?

[bazx]

isn´t mixed with the white powder?


hehe no

inside the extinguishers there is a seperate cylinder which powers the unit when you pull the trigger the units here can be taken apart for refill and new co2 cylinder

i think this is how fatty did it with his cascade

this site sell the gas refills

http://www.salveo.co.uk/fire/fire_extinguishers_price_list.asp

Fire Extinguisher Refills Parts Price List
General
9 Ltr Water (Cartridge) £14.43
6 Ltr Water (Stored Pressure) £10.96
9 Ltr Water (Stored Pressure) £13.85
2 Ltr AFFF (Stored Pressure) £12.82
6 Ltr AFFF (Stored Pressure) £16.63
5.5 Ltr AFFF (Cartridge) £17.33
2 Kg CO2 £8.37
5 Kg CO2 £16.55
1 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Stored Pressure) £12.45
3 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Stored Pressure) £17.73
6 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Stored Pressure) £32.35
9 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Stored Pressure) £47.42
6 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Cartridge) £28.40
9 Kg ABC Dry Powder (Cartridge) £33.89

[LukeXE]

I`m using co2 from fireExtinguishers and it`s ok :)

[sl4ck]

hummm, i'm gonna take a look to see what i can find in local stores ;)

But you refill the fireExtinguishers with a refill tank from that site, don´t change the CO2 cilinder, right?
Or you refill fireExtinguinshers and get the CO2 from there, to inside the cascade?

that site don´t ship to portugal :(

[LukeXE]

I`ve got co2 in that bottle and I have regulator...that`s all

[sl4ck]

but you have a regulator @ the extinguinsher, and you only refill extinguinsher with co2 not powder or @ the refill bottle separated?

[sl4ck]

How much ethylene grams should a 2nd stage take?

I can get a disposable tank with 13Gr ethylene for 59€+VAT but i don´t know if it is enough, please someone can tell me? more or less

[andL64]

u ll need more then a few grams....
its about how much volume the 2nd stage got.

lol ure talking bout 13grams for 59€, thats just insane...

[skirms_fr]

in a second stage , i think like 70 to 100 gr of 1150 (IMO)

[sl4ck]

so isn´t enough :(

It's so expensive because it's a disposable tank, but i was thinking it's a reasonable price, guess i was wrong :eek:

[andL64]

i got a bottle with 3300 grams, 3,3kg, for about 130€

so its 0,04€/gram :D

questions has been answered by yourself, i think

[sl4ck]

i got a bottle with 3300 grams, 3,3kg, for about 130€

so its 0,04€/gram :D

questions has been answered by yourself, i think

Is it your, disposable, rented?
Where are you from?

regards

[andL64]

check Air Liquide or Messer

they ll sell it cheap.

i m from austria

[sl4ck]

Cascade almost done, now i need help fine tuning 2nd stage with CO2+R404a mix.

How much of each gas should i static charge, and how did you measure each one gas quantity? Which gas do i charge first?
When do i know wich gas i have to add more for fine tuning?

[bazx]

i can only say how i did it

1st 20 psi of co2

2nd toped up with with 402 untill i had 60 psi total

started up the cascade and then added 402 untill tuned

[sl4ck]

i can only say how i did it

1st 20 psi of co2

2nd toped up with with 402 untill i had 60 psi total

started up the cascade and then added 402 untill tuned

Thx ;)

What do you mean with toped? my english isn´t the best :(

Do you think i should charge it to 20PSI CO2 and 60psi total with R404a too?

[bazx]

Thx ;)

What do you mean with toped? my english isn´t the best :(

Do you think i should charge it to 20PSI CO2 and 60psi total with R404a too?


Ok here goes

1 connect up the co2 bottle

2 charge with co2 into the compressor to a pressure of 20 psi on the gauge (the red gauge)

3 disconnect the co2 bottle

4 connect up the 404

5 charge with 404 until the gauge reads 60 psi

The total amount of gas pressure with both gases in the compressor should be 60 psi

Turn on the compressor and add more 404 if needed

hope that helps

[sl4ck]

thx ;)

What lowest temp did you anchieve?
Did you test it under Load?

[bazx]

thx ;)

What lowest temp did you anchieve?
Did you test it under Load?

best was -90 unloaded and -65/-70 loaded(evap temp)

but this was with 2x nl11f

[aasmaukr]

I believe you will get lower temp with more CO2. I'd try something like 20 PSI static r404a, then static charge CO2 until you got 60 PSI. Then start the unit and charge more CO2.

[sl4ck]

Not having time(repairing home), but i get an update ;)

2ND Stage Complete


2ND Stage SLHX brazed
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7549/dsc02337wr8.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4192/dsc02338zx5.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/11/dsc02339ij9.jpg

Succion line + Evap
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/567/dsc02340wx7.jpg

Oil Separator + Oil return line
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6906/dsc02341zs3.jpg

HX complete + Manometer(High 2ND Stage) and cut-off switch(Danfoss KP5) conexions
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8317/dsc02342aa2.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/466/dsc02345py4.jpg

Cut off switch conexion(Danfoss KP5)
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9829/dsc02343jv8.jpg

2ND Stage high side manometer
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6643/dsc02344zc2.jpg

Relief valve
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8743/dsc02347la2.jpg

Vacuing
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7031/dsc02348jp4.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6883/dsc02349sy3.jpg

Whole system
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/184/dsc02350xo0.jpg

[sl4ck]

Where do you guys add the oil to the Oil Separator? IN, OUT or OIL RETURN ?
I think the Oil Return, but not sure

Datasheet from my Oil Sep says we have to add 0,4~0,5 Kg Oil, but i don´t have way to weigh the oil, is there any relation between weight and Liters?

[n00b 0f l337]

So many cc's of oil.

[sl4ck]

???

[sl4ck]

Where do you guys add the oil to the Oil Separator? IN, OUT or OIL RETURN ?
I think the Oil Return, but not sure

Datasheet from my Oil Sep says we have to add 0,4~0,5 Kg Oil, but i don´t have way to weigh the oil, is there any relation between weight and Liters?

No one? :(

[bazx]

No one? :(


hi with the last one i use the oil was added by pouring the oil in at the out let port it was a Temprite 900 series oil sep

http://www.temprite.com/downloads/temprite/900_Install.pdf

you will have to ask the manufacturers of the sep for the amount of oil and which port to add the oil

baz

[sl4ck]

Thx :)

The amount i know, it's 0,4~0,5Kg :confused: , but i thought someone could tell me in cc's or liters the relation between the Kg's.

As for the port, do you think would be problem to add it by the Oil Sep oil return port?

They have a web page (http://www.castel.it/PDF/08_Separators.pdf) explaining about the oil sep(5540/4), but that information isn´t there. :(

[andL64]

if you got a schrader valve on high side i would add the oil on inlet, but pull vacuum before because of air in the system, this blocks the oilsep.

in my case its compressor=>oilsep=>condenser

if you put the oil in the outlet it could go through to the whole system. or you add oil in outlet and pull vacuum @ compressor service port

i dont know exactly but thats how i ve done it.

[cold_ice]

I would add the oil in the inlet.

[jinu117]

Whereever it is easy for you is my guess. as for volume.... you could look at msds of oil and calculate it from density... :)

[sl4ck]

well guys, update, party day yesterday :D, all night long well passed removing Ethilen and some parts(he'll use in the new 3 stager) from Ricky's old 2 stage cascade, the ideia was remove the Ethilen and use in my cascade(so we don´t loose this precious gas :D )
It's not yet finished, insulation is gentho way for now, neopren tubes are not closed, flex line insulation is 7x or 8x larger than flex line and do not have nothing inside, LOL, really gentho insulation.
But it is already charged with Ethilen, need to: remove 1st stage SLHX(he's doing nothing), insulate well, finish electrics and tune it under LOAD(it's a little overcharcharged for that reason).

Big thanks to Ricky for the Ethilen. :beerchug:

And some pics:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7803/dsc00001yv2.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/33/dsc00005jh3.jpg

Min temp :D :
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6457/dsc00004rv0.jpg

[LukeXE]

Well done :toast:

Maybe wait with removing I stage SLHX until you will test it under load, it can help then.

[expansionvalve]

* white coat mode on

very good, but, ideally, the pressure releif valve should be fitted up in such a way that if the valve did let go any escaping refrigerant would be directed away from anyone working on the unit or anyone in the surrounding area.
A little food for thought for next time/build.

* white coat mode off

[sl4ck]

@LukeXE -> yeah, i'm gonna test it under load before remove the 1st stage SLHX, thanks for the advice ;)

@ expansionvalve -> you´re right, but i'll add some kind of protection near the expansion valve, so it don´t releif gas to someone ;)