Pump(s) needed for a 120.4 setup?

[Cornelious0_0]

I know some of you might be getting irritated with me by now, but because I don't have the money to build my own watercooling setup right away I'm constantly coming up with new ideas.

After setting up the watercooling in this Antec 1200 (for a friend) and having it here next to me I really wanna go back to a full tower for an impressively powerful watercooling system.

The case that I've simply fallen in love with is the Silverstone TJ10. I can say for sure that there are some things I would be modding to suite my plans and whatnot, but there's one thing in particular that I need to look into. The TJ10 is 644mm deep, and I was thinking of going all out and going with a 120.4 rad in the top of the case. Essentially I'd be scrapping the top I/O ports and making a custom plate to mount the rad to in the top of the case but one way or another I can easily see it happening.

The Black Ice GTX Gen Two Xtreme 480 is calling out to me, but I'm not sure about the pump requirements for such a system. Initially I'd have either my Q6600 or a Q9450 overclocked with a single HD4870 but I'm assuming with the size of the rad I wouldn't have a problem adding a second HD4870 to the same loop, even with a pair of full coverage blocks.

I'd like to plan out the loop assuming that I'm gonna do everything eventually to save from redesigning too much later on, I'd like to simply be able to add more blocks along the way.

If I was gonna have a CPU block, NB block (and other motherboard blocks for mosfets/volt regs depending on the board) and a pair of full coverage HD4870 blocks what would I need for pump(s)?

Might seem like overkill, but if I can pull off an "over the top" h2O setup like this with one rad I'd be ecstatic, because I know along with being very capable and well cooled, I could also make it a thing of beauty.

My ears are open, any input is welcome.

[003]

Will an MCP655 be suitable in a 120.4 loop that contains a CPU block, NB block, and two GPU blocks?

[Sparky]

Rd30

[Cornelious0_0]

Will an MCP655 be suitable in a 120.4 loop that contains a CPU block, NB block, and two GPU blocks?

I dunno...that's pretty much what I'm trying to find out.

There's also a top for the Laing DDC that lets you plug a pump into each side so i dunno if it might be better to run a pair of DDC's or something bigger like the MCP655. Only issue I've got with the 655 is that it's a fair bit louder on full speed and I'd rather route the extra tubing to run a pair of DDC's in series or parallel to accomplish the same thing if noise stays down.

The loop I wanna put together might be over the top but i also don't want it to be a loud beast of a system either.

Rd30

I'd rather not go THAT crazy if I don't have to...if I can get away with 2 or 3 DDC's I'll be happy, I just really don't have any experience with loops that large. I wanna assume I'm gonna have blocks on the mosfest/volt regs as well to be safe so if anyone can lend a hand I'm more then willing to listen.

[003]

Rd30

Where do you actually buy those? I know their expensive, but heck I can't even find where you buy them. Is that the best Iwaki pump you can get for PC water cooling?

[twwen2]

Depends what blocks you plan on using in the loop. If you want to cool everything in one big loop, you'd better get some low-restriction blocks (cue Fusion V1 etc). Otherwise, dual up on those DDCs

[fasttruck860]

It's the best pump available for WC. The MD-20 are also great pumps that can be run from an outlet. Japanese versions cost more, but are better.

[003]

I can't find RD-30 on either of those sites. I can find MD-30 though, is that what you meant? There seem to be several variants of the MD-30, which would I need?

Cornelious0_0:
Sorry if I jacked your thread, but it shouldn't be that bad, we are after the same thing

[Martinm210]

You should be much much much much more concerned with your blocks rather than your radiators, most radiators are so low on restriction you could litterly string dozens of them before you'd add up to the restriction in one high restriction CPU block.

Generally a D5 or DDC is pretty darn hard to bog down to a point where any really significant performance degrades due to flow rates. Put it into my flow rate estimator and if you have more than 1GPM, don't worry about flow.

[Cornelious0_0]

So even if I had more restrictive blocks such as NB/Mosfet/Volt Reg blocks should I be ok with two DDC's?

Would this with two DDC's be enough you it you think?

[Sparky]

Where do you actually buy those? I know their expensive, but heck I can't even find where you buy them. Is that the best Iwaki pump you can get for PC water cooling?

http://www.petrastechshop.com/pumps.html

[Serpentarius]

You should be much much much much more concerned with your blocks rather than your radiators, most radiators are so low on restriction you could litterly string dozens of them before you'd add up to the restriction in one high restriction CPU block.

Generally a D5 or DDC is pretty darn hard to bog down to a point where any really significant performance degrades due to flow rates. Put it into my flow rate estimator and if you have more than 1GPM, don't worry about flow.

+1
but dun get 2 pumps for the job .. it's overkill .. considering your loop is barely more than 3 meters .. we're not talking bout loop of >30 meters

or you could buy 2 pumps .. install 1 .. test then install 2 test .. see the results

[003]

http://www.petrastechshop.com/pumps.html

Thanks, but only the 24v versions are there, and are out of stock. Can I get a 12v RD-30 directly from Iwaki? I would only want the Japanese version.

[Martinm210]

So even if I had more restrictive blocks such as NB/Mosfet/Volt Reg blocks should I be ok with two DDC's?

Would this with two DDC's be enough you it you think?

Check out the flow rate, if you're good, don't bother with two pumps.

You could potentially get worse results with two pumps if the added pump heat dump losses outwiegh your gains in flow rate thermal efficiency. Not typical, but possible.

Here is your homework assignment..

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/...imatorv3_1.zip

[jkresh]

jab-tech also has the iwaki's (at slightly better prices then petra's) but I don't think there are 12volt rd30's (pretty sure the rd's are all 24v) you can run them at 12v but then they are only around a ddc3.2

[Cornelious0_0]

I'll check out that attachment Martin, but are you guys saying that I could probably get by with a single DDC? I might end up drilling a fillport into the top of the TJ10 if there's room so I might not need a reservoir but all in all I'd rather go overboard with the pump(s) then have what's barely enough and run into issues later.

Seriously though, just thinking of having the TJ10 sitting on my desk with the quad rad up top, the CPU/GPU(s) watercooled and an extra few blocks on the motherboard makes me salivate.

There's gonna be a hefty amount of custom wiring and whatnot going into the build as well if i stick with it...this is gonna be my serious project that I've been waiting for for quite awhile now...I can hardly wait!

[Martinm210]

I'll check out that attachment Martin, but are you guys saying that I could probably get by with a single DDC? I might end up drilling a fillport into the top of the TJ10 if there's room so I might not need a reservoir but all in all I'd rather go overboard with the pump(s) then have what's barely enough and run into issues later.

Seriously though, just thinking of having the TJ10 sitting on my desk with the quad rad up top, the CPU/GPU(s) watercooled and an extra few blocks on the motherboard makes me salivate.

There's gonna be a hefty amount of custom wiring and whatnot going into the build as well if i stick with it...this is gonna be my serious project that I've been waiting for for quite awhile now...I can hardly wait!

Yes, a single DDC pump with top is really a heck of alot of pumping power and alot more than most systems even need. There have been a couple of people that have mentioned to me that they actually got better results running a D5 at lower settings, and that's all because of heat dump. Two pumps usually only gains you about maybe 30% more flow. So if you had 1.2 GPM two pumps might give you 1.5GPM. The thermal efficiency gain is probably less than .5C, yet you may raise your water temperature by that much or more depending on your radiator setup.

But in the end I think it really depends on the block. There's not a whole lot of data out there like C/W vs flow rate that well defines what the gains are. D-Tek and Swiftech are the only ones that publish this sort of data.

Data aside, there have been a mixture of results. Naeku has tons of experience with high pressure pumps like the Iwaki RD-30 and has reported up to 2C worth of gain. McCoffee noted that during dual D5 testing that he really couldn't measure any gain between one D5 and two.

With all of this combined, I think two pump "Could" provide some gain, but it's likely not going to add up to more than 1 or 2C at most and could potentially make it worse depending on your radiator.

I got the impression you were interested in a multiple block loop so you'll probably be running some decent heat loads on the radiator.

But hey, you know, this is all extreme systems stuff, running two pumps fits right in with that. Plus you get the added benefit of redundancy, if one pump fails, you've got an automatic backup. Just don't expect to see some big 5C gain from flow rates, it can't happen.

Like anything in watercooling siginficant gains only come from an accumulation of many minor ones. To do that you have to tinker as there is no absolute best setup for any one system.

Enjoy the new build, and post lots of pics, and invest in plenty of time afterwards doing the best thing you can for any sytem and tinker!!

[skinnee]

thank you martin from rescuing this thread!

RD30 needed for a medium restriction loop...

[Cornelious0_0]

Yes, a single DDC pump with top is really a heck of alot of pumping power and alot more than most systems even need. There have been a couple of people that have mentioned to me that they actually got better results running a D5 at lower settings, and that's all because of heat dump. Two pumps usually only gains you about maybe 30% more flow. So if you had 1.2 GPM two pumps might give you 1.5GPM. The thermal efficiency gain is probably less than .5C, yet you may raise your water temperature by that much or more depending on your radiator setup.

But in the end I think it really depends on the block. There's not a whole lot of data out there like C/W vs flow rate that well defines what the gains are. D-Tek and Swiftech are the only ones that publish this sort of data.

Data aside, there have been a mixture of results. Naeku has tons of experience with high pressure pumps like the Iwaki RD-30 and has reported up to 2C worth of gain. McCoffee noted that during dual D5 testing that he really couldn't measure any gain between one D5 and two.

With all of this combined, I think two pump "Could" provide some gain, but it's likely not going to add up to more than 1 or 2C at most and could potentially make it worse depending on your radiator.

I got the impression you were interested in a multiple block loop so you'll probably be running some decent heat loads on the radiator.

But hey, you know, this is all extreme systems stuff, running two pumps fits right in with that. Plus you get the added benefit of redundancy, if one pump fails, you've got an automatic backup. Just don't expect to see some big 5C gain from flow rates, it can't happen.

Like anything in watercooling siginficant gains only come from an accumulation of many minor ones. To do that you have to tinker as there is no absolute best setup for any one system.

Enjoy the new build, and post lots of pics, and invest in plenty of time afterwards doing the best thing you can for any sytem and tinker!!

Thanks man, it's replies like that that I look forward to seeing.

Good to know that it probably won't be worth going with the second pump...I didn't really want to in the first place, so that simplifies things a lot for me, and I'd rather just HAVE an extra pump and have the computer shut down @ a certain temp to avoid damage and then just swap the pump then wire up a second one and add heat to the loop when it's not really needed.

I am going to be running a multiple block loop, probably CPU/NB and one or two full coverage HD4870 blocks depending on if I get a second card or not, maybe a single 4870x2...who knows.

The main downside here is that cash is tight and before I can start dumping money into this project the top priority is building my fiance (wedding on the 23rd) her own system. I'm starting to get busier building computers out of my home for people on the side and making decent money doing it so off the start that'll be the money going into this build. The first thing I pickup is gonna be the TJ10, followed by any necessary mods to the case, then the watercooling, and finally a motherboard/PSU to transfer the gear out of my Shuttle.

All in all I'm very excited to start slowly piecing things together and once again be able to look to the side of my desk and see a decked out watercooling system in a nicely modded case.

[Cornelious0_0]

Martin, I just wanted to say thanks SO much for the download link for the Flow Rate Estimator...such a nice tool!

I was able to select essentially every piece of equipment I planned on using. With the DTek FuZion v2 cpu block, two mosfet blocks for the rampage formula, NB and SB blocks, and 2 full coverage HD3870 blocks (no 4870's available) my flow rate is still at 1.26gpm and the system preasure drop curve is shown to be in the center of the "great" range on the graph...all with a single DDC3.2 with the XSPC reservoir top that I was planning on using anyways! I was gonna go with all EK blocks for consistency but the DTek looks to be MUCH less restrictive and should be well worth subbing in.

I'm a LOT more confident now...knowing it would all work out is amazing, the tough part I guess would just be to figure out how the tubing would be laid out with 4 blocks on the motherboard, the cpu, and two full coverage gpu blocks. Not a small task...but a work of art when done properly.

Thanks again Martin...you've been great. Even though I pretty much have the answer(s) I was looking for i don't see the harm in leaving this thread open for general discussion...as long as it stays relatively on topic.

[101]

my flow rate is still at 1.26gpm and the system preasure drop curve is shown to be in the center of the "great" range on the graph...

The ranges at the top are for the green flow rate line, where the pump and drop curves intersect.

[Cornelious0_0]

Sorry, not really sure exactly how I'm supposed to read the graph.

[Cornelious0_0]

Bad news...my Shuttle is down and out...stupid thing locked up in the middle of a BIOS flash and is useless 'till I get the BIOS chip replaced.

Because cash is tight I've got a system I can use for now that's crap but enough to stay online, and once the BIOS chip is back I'm gonna sell the Shuttle and pickup the Silverstone TJ08.

I had originally been considering the TJ08 for a watercooling project but I opted for the TJ10 not to long ago. Considering I'm going to be picking up the TJ08 and an HX620 I'm just gonna stick with that and plan out the watercooling to fit the mATX setup.

In a way I'm glad that the Shuttle is down and out, it'll get me into my new case sooner then before and one step closer to my next h2O setup.

Essentially this thread is now irrelevant to anything I'll be persuing so I'm just gonna go ahead and have it locked i think...thx for the input everyone...it was very much appreciated.